Owning the Road ?

zak3737

Just wondered what others do .......

One of our regular routes is a flat 40miler, with coffee stop etc, mostly on quiet roads, most of which are really only single lane, with passing places etc, not much traffic, so ideal.

We ride 2 abreast, but whenever Cars approach from ahead or behind, we move into single file, and keep as close in as poss, and most cars slow to pass, without problem.

BUT - there's inevitably a number of prats who seemingly dont want to inconvenience themselves by having to slow fractionally at all, and pass us very close and dangerously, or they dont wish to get thier pride & joy too close to the muddy edge of the road and get it dirty, & again pass us far too close.

So the question, is.......should we , and do you, - basically own that type of road, by cycling far enough out that they cannot get past until they have slowed enough and you then move out of the way to allow you both to pass safely ?
I'm sure this will bring out the very worst in some drivers, and prompt much swearing, but in reality, is it the only way to deal with idiots who dont want to slow down to pass ?

plodder73

There is a time and place where owning the road or being in primary is appropriate. Some junctions, pinch points etc. I would not usually try and stop vehicles on a narrow road from passing by doing that. I just think that there are a few idiots who would see that as a perfect opportunity for a confrontation, there is no guarantee that when you decided it was safe for them to pass they would do do in an appropriate manner. That's just my take not saying I'm right.

plodder73

Further to the last it would very much depend on the width of the road, on a very narrow road ie one car width or just over by travelling a reasonable distance from the side you would in effect be owning the road, I certainly wouldn't be cycling on the grass verge or within a few inches of a kerb to let them past.

kajjal

It's a balance between being confident and safe but not being arrogant and thinking you own the road. If it comes down to it I would get off the road if I am causing a tailback. An example of this was a lorry could not overtake me due to being on a windy road so I just hopped off the road and let everyone past. On the other hand if I am passing parked cars on the other side of the road I tend to pull away from the curb just enough to stop drivers thinking they can squeeze through.

Main thing is keep yourself safe.

tangled_metal

Ride safe for yourself, i.e. avoid the debris close to the road edge, typically riding about between 0.5 and 1.0m is where I am on country roads about 90% of the time. If you ride in the safest place for you and do not try to control other road users I think is the safest policy.

+1 on the reasons and places to use the primary position - pinch points, lead in to mini roundabouts, etc. If you use that elsewhere just to slow down a motorist you think is a prat in a car is potentiall putting yourself at risk. If you ride out to say 1m you then should have a little movement space if he/she tries to push through. Riding closer gives you nowhere to go. Riding out antagonises the driver and puts you at risk too because there are truly idiots out there who just don't care. Plus if you do happen to be holding someone up for a while because of the road, please consider pulling into say a gate entrance to let them through. A 30 second delay while he passes and you getting back up to speed is certainly something to consider for motorist/cyclist relations. I firmly believe in considerate driving and cycling. That Strava segment is not worth an agressive driver up your back wheel.

slowmart

It sounds like you're riding reasonably and with consideration for other road users.

You will always have idiots using the road with questionable ability and decision making and it may be your trying to mitigate the idiocy?

You will never square that circle.

downhill paul

If I am in a situation where there are parked cars on either side of the road, a car coming towards me or going through a pinch point/traffic island and there isn't enough room for a car to pass me safely or without getting too close, I will move in to such a position that makes it impossible for them to pass me at all. of course in such situations there may be enough room for a car to pass me, but having enough room to pass me safely is another matter.
I would rather do this and possibly anger a driver instead of putting myself and my bike at risk and in harms way. it's hardly the most expensive bike you can buy, but if anything did happen to it or my kit, I wouldn't have the money to be able to go out and buy it all new straight away.
I have mentioned in the past that near where I live and in a few other areas, there are signs making it clear to drivers that you shouldn't overtake cyclists going through pinch points/traffic islands. still the majority of them pay little or no attention to these signs and think they can do whatever the hell they like. whether they like it or not I am there to point out that they can't do whatever they like. well they can try, but I'm not going to stand by and do nothing while some arrogant arse hole tries to force me out of the way to save a few precious seconds on their journey.
some of the things I have seen on the road have been so shocking, all you can do at the time is laugh.

I once had a guy in a car fly past me and pull in front of me, seconds before he had to hit the brakes to slow for a roundabout. I was just behind him and clearly indicating to turn left/1st exit at the roundabout, he had no indicators on meaning he could be going straight on, but with the way he past me I also thought that he could be going left or right and just couldn't be bothered indicating. I was first away from the line and as I moved forward and started to turn left, he cut right across the front of me as he was also turning left. there was a lot of shouting and swearing and horn blasting. we were both in the lane to go left or straight ahead but it's still no excuse for not using your indicators. something which I pointed out to him when he got out of the car shouting at me. if he had followed me turning left without cutting across the front of me, which he could have easily done then I wouldn't have been bothered. he isn't the first driver who has failed to use his or her indicators at a roundabout or junction and he won't be the last. but the fact that he purposefully cut in front of me when there was more than enough room for us both to get round the corner pissed me off. luckily there was a police car parked 20feet up the road who just happened to have seen me indicating to go left, he also saw the guy in the car turning left without indicating and cutting right in front of me. I carried on enjoying my ride while he had to explain to mr police man why he failed to indicate at a roundabout and wasn't paying attention to the cyclist that he nearly hit.

zak3737

Confrontation isnt something I'm bothered about, if it happens so be it, I'm 6' & 15st, so its up to them.
Thats not to say i'm looking for confrontation, I'm not, but not afraid to stand my corner if some eejit wants to yell at me or worse.

The point I'm making is that perhaps by being too 'accommodating' on narrow roads, and pulling over nice and tidily, merely gives 'some' drivers license to fly past unchecked and without consideration to you/us.
I'm definitely going to make sure I'm sufficiently 'in the way' on the roads I'm talking about, which are narrowish, until I'm sure they've slowed down 'sufficiently' to pass me safely.
Seriously, some of them passed us yesterday at perhaps 30/40mph with less than 12" of room - and even less for us at our side of the road.

stretchy

I sometimes sit further out but I'm not sure if this really stops people buzzing you at 40mph. Doing so though certainly does stop lorries overtaking at/just before pinch points which can cause some problems.

taon24

On a single track road I'd prefer to ride fairly centrally and then move in to let cars in both directions past.
On a single lane both direction I'd ride centrally in my lane at all times and force cars to overtake in the opposite lane. I find moving to the side encourages close passing, which puts me at risk, while the use of the horn by the car behind me does not put me at risk. Some people would single out on a road like this, but in reality this just makes the group of cyclists longer, appeases the drivers a little and increases the risk.

A wide single carriageway, where there is space in my lane for me and a car is the single time I'd ride 0.5m from the kerb and make sure we weren't riding side by side.
On a dual carriageway I ride in the centre of my lane and force overtaking.

Horns and grumpy words are not dangerous, and in fact mean that you have been seen. A close pass is much more risky.

adr82

Zak3737 wrote:

Seriously, some of them passed us yesterday at perhaps 30/40mph with less than 12" of room - and even less for us at our side of the road.

There's simply nothing you can do to be sure of avoiding this type of behaviour, unfortunately. If you try to take the lane to prevent overtaking, some people will just squeeze past anyway if they think they can. Others will wait with steam coming out of their ears and then blast past as close and as fast as possible just to make themselves feel better about the "bloody cyclists". I've seen videos where drivers overtook a cyclist around the wrong side of a traffic island rather than wait behind them through the pinch point - some drivers are just absolutely brain dead and you have to be aware of that, because whatever you do, however sensibly you ride, they will find a way to put you in danger.

taon24 wrote:

Horns and grumpy words are not dangerous, and in fact mean that you have been seen. A close pass is much more risky.

True to some extent, but if you have someone behind you leaning on their horn, the chance of a subsequent close pass/left hook/other piece of extravagant stupidity rises rather sharply in my experience.

cougie

Zak3737 wrote:

Confrontation isnt something I'm bothered about, if it happens so be it, I'm 6' & 15st, so its up to them..

So what ? Cars are a minimum of 1 tonne and made out of hard metal. You might want to revise that attitude if you want a long and healthy cycling life. Once I was young and foolish - but once you've had cars driving at you - you learn to adapt.

debeli

This is a potentially thorny issue and much wisdom has been shown by posters above.

The highway is a shared environment. I find that the more 'sharing' I am towards other road users, the happier the journey.

As a cyclist, I try (these days) to avoid behaviours that anger me when I see them in another cyclist while I'm driving.

Similarly, when driving I try to be inclusive of other road users - trucks, tractors, motorcyclists , pedestrians and so on.

As we're human, silly things like short tempers will get in the way sometimes and none of us is perfect. I'm close to being so, but no-one else is anywhere near the mark, frankly.

Motorists are occasionally prone to thinking that the marked maximum speed on a stretch of road is the target rather than a maximum. They might therefore resent being 'slowed down' by cyclists, tractors or HGVs that are restricted to 40 on single carriageways.

If we all just smiled and tried to be lovely to all other road users, thngs would work much better. I know that other people will find my level of modesty and perfection hard to emulate, but I think we should all at least try to be lovely.

zak3737

cougie wrote:

Zak3737 wrote:

Confrontation isnt something I'm bothered about, if it happens so be it, I'm 6' & 15st, so its up to them..

So what ? Cars are a minimum of 1 tonne and made out of hard metal. You might want to revise that attitude if you want a long and healthy cycling life. Once I was young and foolish - but once you've had cars driving at you - you learn to adapt.

Cougie - what planet are you on ?
I'm meaning 'confrontation with irate drivers' IF I piss them off, not headbutting cars......

Oh - & I'm 52 !

zak3737

Debeli wrote:

This is a potentially thorny issue and much wisdom has been shown by posters above.

The highway is a shared environment. I find that the more 'sharing' I am towards other road users, the happier the journey.

As a cyclist, I try (these days) to avoid behaviours that anger me when I see them in another cyclist while I'm driving.

Similarly, when driving I try to be inclusive of other road users - trucks, tractors, motorcyclists , pedestrians and so on.

As we're human, silly things like short tempers will get in the way sometimes and none of us is perfect. I'm close to being so, but no-one else is anywhere near the mark, frankly.

Motorists are occasionally prone to thinking that the marked maximum speed on a stretch of road is the target rather than a maximum. They might therefore resent being 'slowed down' by cyclists, tractors or HGVs that are restricted to 40 on single carriageways.

If we all just smiled and tried to be lovely to all other road users, thngs would work much better. I know that other people will find my level of modesty and perfection hard to emulate, but I think we should all at least try to be lovely.

Just brought a tear to my eye.......
If only the world was as perfect as that.

Anonymous

Debeli wrote:

This is a potentially thorny issue and much wisdom has been shown by posters above.

The highway is a shared environment. I find that the more 'sharing' I am towards other road users, the happier the journey.

As a cyclist, I try (these days) to avoid behaviours that anger me when I see them in another cyclist while I'm driving.

Similarly, when driving I try to be inclusive of other road users - trucks, tractors, motorcyclists , pedestrians and so on.

As we're human, silly things like short tempers will get in the way sometimes and none of us is perfect. I'm close to being so, but no-one else is anywhere near the mark, frankly.

Motorists are occasionally prone to thinking that the marked maximum speed on a stretch of road is the target rather than a maximum. They might therefore resent being 'slowed down' by cyclists, tractors or HGVs that are restricted to 40 on single carriageways.

If we all just smiled and tried to be lovely to all other road users, thngs would work much better. I know that other people will find my level of modesty and perfection hard to emulate, but I think we should all at least try to be lovely.

Are you some sort of hippy living in cuckoo land?

Our actions/reactions aside, the answer is simply that motorists need to know what the law is and are then made to obey it.
Don't hold your breath though. Have you seen the people we give driving licences to and what we let them get away with before taking them back again?
They even make TV programmes about them for early evening family entertainment

andy_wrx

I'm kinda amused by the logic of 'making' someone in a ton-and-a-half of metal obey the law by 'owning the road'.

Anonymous

It isn't the cyclists job to make them obey the law, its the authorities/society.
Taking primary position probably does more than wearing a flower in your hair and smiling politely though.

slowbike

Debeli wrote:

The highway is a shared environment. I find that the more 'sharing' I am towards other road users, the happier the journey.

Unfortunately it doesn't stop the idiots from passing too close then making you wonder just wtf you're being so courteous to the motorised traffic ...

zak3737

andy_wrx wrote:

I'm kinda amused by the logic of 'making' someone in a ton-and-a-half of metal obey the law by 'owning the road'.

This thread is getting derailed...... :?
I'm merely asking asking if its (ironically) safer for us to adopt a position on a single track road that clearly doesnt leave room for a car to pass, until he's slowed to an acceptable speed, or at least a 'courteous' speed etc.
Thats of course as long as we can see him coming, and where he can see us ahead, ahead or behind, which on the roads/route i'm talking about, IS the case, as its all open farmland, and long straight stretches of road.
So far, pulling out of the way as much as poss is merely encouraging some eejits to pass at stupid speed.....

cougie

Zak - you're new to cycling. I've been at it 30 years. Confrontation with cars is to be avoided. People get very brave (and stupid) in their metal cages. A moment of temper from them and you could be off the road for weeks, months, permanently. It doesn't matter that you're 15 stone and 6 feet.

As to the country roads - its a judgement call. You don't want to encourage unsafe overtaking - but it'd be courteous to let him overtake by pulling over if you can after a while and give him a cheery wave. Debeli has the right idea I think - if you're nice to people - by and large they'll be nice back.

How many riders are there in your group ? In my club we don't let the rides get too big - we break them up to avoid things getting silly.

adr82

Zak3737 wrote:

So far, pulling out of the way as much as poss is merely encouraging some eejits to pass at stupid speed.....

As I said already, people will always do this. Always. Doesn't matter if you ride barely an inch from the kerb, the mere fact of your presence on the road is enough to make some drivers see red because as far as they're concerned roads are for cars and nothing else. You'll get close passes virtually anywhere. Watch some helmet cam videos on YouTube. There are so many drivers out there who'll happily risk a serious accident for the sake of a couple of seconds.

You have to settle on a sensible middle ground - allow traffic to flow past you when safe and sensible, take up a stronger position when appropriate, but always be aware that some people are absolutely still going to attempt to overtake while you are in the latter position. You'll find those people (probably the same ones who pass you too closely) will take riding in the middle of the lane as some sort of personal insult, and so you'll get them tailgating you while leaning on the horn and shouting out the window that you should be in the gutter and so forth. If you ride on the roads you just have to learn to live with the minority of drivers who behave like this at the slightest provocation.

Biomech

How do you guys handle turning right at roundabouts?

There's one on my route on a 60mph road, how do you move to the right if there's traffic hurtling up behind you constantly? (they don't care if you're signalling).

On the one 60mph route roundabout, I've been fortunate enough to not have to try to get right during traffic, at worst I move over very early during a lull. On another one, I've indicated, waited, started to move and had a van 40m before the roundabout take me on the right side forcing me to stop in the middle of the road. Likewise, when they don't let you move right approaching a roundabout, you end up stuck AT the roundabout on the left forcing you down the wrong road.

Biomech

As for cars passing. I try to slow, move in for them (especially lorries). Give them a thumbs up when I can see around a junction before them and, if on a left hand tight bend, I'll cycle out in the middle of the lane just to so I'm seen sooner - I keep an eye/ear out and constantly check for incoming cars.

cougie

Turning right in heavy traffic - if there's no gaps - pull off to the left and wait until there is one.

Unless there's a different route you could use.

Biomech

How do you find that works with time trials? I like to match or beat my previous times and find traffic can sometimes make or break it

cougie

Proper time trials or just testing yourself ? Proper TT's try and minimise right turns and will avoid busy periods.

If its just yourself - well ask yourself if your survival instinct is greater than an unofficial PB ? Up to you...

lakesluddite

Biomech wrote:

How do you guys handle turning right at roundabouts?

There's one on my route on a 60mph road, how do you move to the right if there's traffic hurtling up behind you constantly? (they don't care if you're signalling).

On the one 60mph route roundabout, I've been fortunate enough to not have to try to get right during traffic, at worst I move over very early during a lull. On another one, I've indicated, waited, started to move and had a van 40m before the roundabout take me on the right side forcing me to stop in the middle of the road. Likewise, when they don't let you move right approaching a roundabout, you end up stuck AT the roundabout on the left forcing you down the wrong road.

https://www.gov.uk/rules-for-cyclists-5 ... s-76-to-78

Basically, you're on your own buddy!

Personally I have re-routed my commute to avoid a roundabout like this (and the main A road that it is on), but if I had to negotiate it, then perhaps waiting for a relative quiet period, or getting on the pavement and doing the pedestrian thing, or stick to the left lane (which you are entitled to do), making sure I've a good idea of what else is around, and hope they have all seen me!

diy

There is a lot of good info out there in the advanced motorcycling world that crosses over in the cycling. No educated motorcyclist would block a 4 wheeled vehicle in the way some cyclists seem to think is clever. If I had to sum up advanced riding in to a few points, I'd say:

1. Adopt an attitude that allows for others mistakes and accept "bad behavior" might be a genuine mistake.
2. Adopt a riding plan that adapts to the hazards around you and correctly prioritises them according to risk.
3. Accept that you cannot control others behavior, observation, skill, attitude etc.. So always think about what happens if..
4. You don't want "but it was my right of way" on your grave stone.

When I used to train people for advanced motorbike tests (incl. plod) no amount of talent could fix a sh** attitude - courtesy is king. You can influence a driver much better with a nod or a wave than by obstructing them.

slowbike

cougie wrote:

As to the country roads - its a judgement call. You don't want to encourage unsafe overtaking - but it'd be courteous to let him overtake by pulling over if you can after a while and give him a cheery wave. Debeli has the right idea I think - if you're nice to people - by and large they'll be nice back.

On solo rides along narrow country lanes I know - if I've got a car coming up behind me I make it clear that I've seen them and if possible I'll point to a place where I'm going to pull in to let them past - usually seems to work although there's always one or two twonks who must get past you right NOW

With group riding is a bit harder as it requires good communication in the group as well as knowing the area.

Being nice to the driver isn't going to work all the time - but on balance it's preferable ...

arthur_scrimshaw

Biomech wrote:

How do you guys handle turning right at roundabouts?

There's one on my route on a 60mph road, how do you move to the right if there's traffic hurtling up behind you constantly? (they don't care if you're signalling).

On the one 60mph route roundabout, I've been fortunate enough to not have to try to get right during traffic, at worst I move over very early during a lull. On another one, I've indicated, waited, started to move and had a van 40m before the roundabout take me on the right side forcing me to stop in the middle of the road. Likewise, when they don't let you move right approaching a roundabout, you end up stuck AT the roundabout on the left forcing you down the wrong road.

In situations like this you need to be pragmatic, all well and good being in the right but no use if you are dead. If it's that fast, swallow your pride and take the first exit then double back up the the junction. You've then got good vision of the approaching traffic and can pick your moment to cross. Of course you won't be getting any Strava segments but you may make it in one piece.