future wheel builds with dura ace hubs

gazl

looking at potential future wheel build for my summer bike and pretty much settled on dura ace 9000 hubs so i can replace the rims when required, not settled on which rims yet but could be either carbon or ally.
I weigh 66kg and was thinking of 20/24 but the hubs don't come in 20 hole so will need to go either 18/24 or 24/24. Whenever wheels are mentioned it seems to be that less spokes on the front wheel is desired, does it really matter other than saving about 30 grams

ugo.santalucia

Why don't you buy the hubs when you have made up your mind about what you want?

trailflow

Why don't you buy the hubs when you have made up your mind about what you want?

What a crap reply. Why dont you answer his question which is related to spoke count? which seems reasonable to me.

i would go 18/24 for the added comfort and less weight.

If you plan to do very high milage. 24/24 for durabilty.

ugo.santalucia

trailflow wrote:

Why don't you buy the hubs when you have made up your mind about what you want?

What a crap reply. Why dont you answer his question which is related to spoke count?

Which depends on which rims he wants... it's not a crap reply... it's the only sensible reply. 50 mm carbon rims are not the same thing as 25 mm alloy rims

cycleclinic

It not a crap reply as one of the most readiliy availble 18H alloy rims in the U.K is the Pacenti SL23. Carbon rims in this drilling are not common either are normally special order from the factory that makes them. So unless the wheel builder you are buying from uses the 18H DA hub and has rims in stock finding them may add expensive not accounted for.

24F/24R will be no more durable than 18F/24R. It is the rear wheel in which the spokes will fatigue the fastest not the front. Why would 18H front wheel be more comfortable. This also is nonsence.

Personally hold of buying the hubs until you have decided what you want. You will need to find out what rims are available first I have told you of one (I should not mention the other) available in the U.K. You may also want to speak to wheelbuilders about what they can actually do unless you are building yourself. If you are building yourself then fine if you are using a wheelbuilder see first the price they will charge for the complete build before you buy hubs you may find there is not much if any money to be saved.

18f/24R will be fine at your weight. If you go for a 24H front then go with a 28 spoke rear the extra weight is not something you will notice over a 24H rear.

trailflow

Which depends on which rims he wants

True. but you cant always presume people know things like that though. Why would a deeper rim make any difference ?

Why would 18H front wheel be more comfortable.

Because it will flex more. if.... its a shallow alloy rim.

cycleclinic

So a flexing wheel is a more comfortable no is it? Also a Pacenti SL23 rim is 26mm deep so not shallow that medium depth. Shallow is 20mm or less. A flexible wheels is one where the spokes fatigue and break. The radial stiffness of an 18H front wheel compared to 24 spoke front wheel is lower but it is still so stiff that flex is not persepatble or noticeable. I can assure you haveing build an 18H front wheel with the DA hub it is very stiff indeed and the wheel will not be flexing over lumps and bumps.

Also if flexible wheels are more comfortable please explain why my 32 spoke front and rear archetype rims on chorus hub shod in 27mm Open Pave tyres are incredablly comfortable. Oh I will tell you why it the tyres - the stiffness of the wheel has nothing to do with it as I have the same tyres on lighter more flexible wheels and they were more uncomfortable as the rims were narrower and the 27mm tyre was only 25mm wide.

Tyre width, tyre casing and pressure for the last time influcene comfort far more. When will this myth be put to bed of lower wheel stiffness vs comfort? Rant over.

ugo.santalucia

trailflow wrote:

Because it will flex more. if.... its a shallow alloy rim.

Stiffness of a wheel and how "comfortably" it rides are not related. Based on your theory a 16 spoked Mavic Aksium should be the comfiest wheel out there, while it's probably the opposite and certainly harsher than a 32 h wheel built 3 cross with double butted spokes.

If the OP wants to build his own wheels, he needs to have a plan of what rims he wants and how he is going to source them. 18H carbon rims are typically custom and can only be sourced from abroad... on the other hand many 24 H carbon rims are offset drilled and only suitable for rear wheels... hence the need of a plan ahead of purchasing the hubs to avoid disappointment...

gazl

thanks for the replies and info, i suppose what i am thinking is if this time i built the hubs with an ally rim and in a year or 2 decided on a carbon rim (clincher or tubular) would building wheels 24/24 2x front & rear be the better option or build 18/24 & possibly be limited with rim choice on the front

Ugo, interesting info regarding many carbon 24 hole rims are only suitable for the rear though

ugo.santalucia

gazl wrote:

thanks for the replies and info, i suppose what i am thinking is if this time i built the hubs with an ally rim and in a year or 2 decided on a carbon rim (clincher or tubular) would building wheels 24/24 2x front & rear be the better option or build 18/24 & possibly be limited with rim choice on the front

Ugo, interesting info regarding many carbon 24 hole rims are only suitable for the rear though

If that's your plan, I would think of something more mainstream like 20/24, which gives you a broader range of options. Many good hubs come in 20/24: Hope would be my choice to keep maintenance simple.

Bear in mind another drawback of Dura Ace is the tight holes in the rear hub. That prevents you from using spokes with a thicker J bend, which are getting more and more available and are useful to increase fatigue life in low spoke count wheels. Thing like DT Swiss Alpine 3 or Sapim Force/Strong won't fit.

cycleclinic

Sapim force do fit da hubs done it and it works well. Many carbon rim come centre driLled When buying from a far eastern supplier you can often specify this or offset drilling anything you like really.

There are many good hubs in 20f/24r hope is one white industries T11 is another But the da hubs are the best there is for me.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

There are many good hubs in 20f/24r hope is one white industries T11 is another But the da hubs are the best there is for me.

Hubs all do the same job and it's down to which one will give you less grief over the course of its existence. On top of that, a free hub with strong positive springs is a good thing, an assembly that does not involve bolts torqued at an impossible number that will not come off without shearing is another good thing. Bearings that are readily available is another good thing.
The good thing about high end Shimano hubs is that generally they don't give grief, however they do not tick any of the above requirements, which means when they do give you grief, that is multiplied to the power of N

aloadofpants

I'm have the same issues as the original poster of this thread, so apologies for the reboot. I'm looking to commission a handbuilt set of wheels for the exact reasons why people go for handbuilt - custom for only me, better than factory, spoke count specifically for my needs, choice of rims and most important for me, especially after my C24s - future-proofing.
I like the Dura Ace 9000 hubs (smoothness, sound, cup and cone tinkering) as I ran the C24s in the past, and also currently have Ultegra 6800 on another bike. I've been recommended 20/24 spoke counts for my weight and riding, but the DA9000 hubs do not come in 20h - only 18h which limits my choice of alloy rim down to only one in the UK (Pacenti 23sl). That is fine for now if they are available now, but what if I fancy a change in the future to a different rim? Are there any other 18h options at the moment you know of?
Otherwise for future-proofing, if 20/24 is the most flexible option, then am I looking at a different hub and forget the Dura Ace? Thanks.

ugo.santalucia

Stick a 24 at the front and live with 20 grams extra... simple...

cycleclinic

Or white industries t11 or royce if you want simple reliable hubs with titanium freehub body. Be prepared tl pay though both are more expensive than da hubs.