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I am a Liberal...

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  • ai_1ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    morstar wrote:
    I once heard somebody being interviewed on radio about the loss of certain types of trees in this country and how the landscape was changing forever.

    He acknowledged this was undeniably the case but went on to make the following point. He said the landscape of British trees has perpetually evolved over hundreds and thousands of years and the problem is when somebody picks a random era that represents their personal preference and then decides that any variance from that is inherently bad.

    There are very similar parallels with immigration. Us modern day Brits are merely a snapshot in time and perpetually evolving. There is absolutely no doubt that society is changing as a result. The problem is that those most anti are people who are scared of change. These are not people who take things forward, they are stick in the muds and little Englanders who want everything just so or have been convinced that these immigrants are the reason for their own struggles.

    I see the immigrants that work in our factory (primarily Polish) as go getters. People who 'got on their bike' (Tebbit anybody?) to make better lives for themselves. These are people who add value to society.

    Is mass immigration perfect for us? Probably not, but if we solely listened to the middle class, middle aged person who is comfortable and aspires for nothing other than everything about their live to remain exactly as it is, we are not moving forward as a society. They are the Mail readers who fear everything that doesn't fit in with their own little utopia. I suspect a few of them ride bikes.
    Fully agree, in general at least, I'm not familiar with the specifics in the UK but the situation is similar in many western european countries and further afield in US, Australia, etc...
    There's always a huge proportion of the population with a general aversion to change. Strangely, many of them also complain about how things are so I don't see how they can rationally have a blanket opposition to change but so it seems. The bedrock of this mindset is tradition, lack of imagination and a fixed (and fictional) idea of how the world always has been and should remain, which you already mentioned.

    Easy answers are attractive. If someone tells you who to blame and it's not you there's a temptation to join the mob. Please resist the urge. Give the topic some rational thought. Try and figure out the real answer. If you like the answer you come to, be suspicious, and check again. Hopefully it's right, but maybe you fooled yourself. We're all good at that you know! It's easy to come to a conclusion you like. It's harder but more useful if you're willing to accept the reality even when you'd prefer it to be different.

    That's what I think anyway.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Ai_1 wrote:
    Fully agree, in general at least, I'm not familiar with the specifics in the UK but the situation is similar in many western european countries and further afield in US, Australia, etc...
    There's always a huge proportion of the population with a general aversion to change. Strangely, many of them also complain about how things are so I don't see how they can rationally have a blanket opposition to change but so it seems. The bedrock of this mindset is tradition, lack of imagination and a fixed (and fictional) idea of how the world always has been and should remain, which you already mentioned.

    Easy answers are attractive. If someone tells you who to blame and it's not you there's a temptation to join the mob. Please resist the urge. Give the topic some rational thought. Try and figure out the real answer. If you like the answer you come to, be suspicious, and check again. Hopefully it's right, but maybe you fooled yourself. We're all good at that you know! It's easy to come to a conclusion you like. It's harder but more useful if you're willing to accept the reality even when you'd prefer it to be different.

    That's what I think anyway.

    there is truth in a lot of what you say but equally it is true of people with an opposing view, the easy answer for people in the pro migration camp is to say "all is well, you are a mail reading/stuck in the mud/middle aged person with a complete lack of imagination"
    Harder to argue is for an immigration policy that allows economic migrants from EU with no limit to their numbers but at the same time, we are so scared of helping people in real need, such as the Syrians displaced from their country (4m and counting) many living in abject poverty and perfect breeding ground for ISIS, great future proofing!
    How will history judge our lack of compassion for these people? even the US is allowing in many times the number the UK is.

    So, with the Eurozone heading for another recession, how many more migrants do you think this country could cope with? (the population has risen 5m in 14years) do you think we could cope with an additional 5 million? 10miliion, 20 million? and if not, do you then not fall into the "lack of imagination" camp? and if you do think the uk can muddle along, where is the money coming from for schools, roads, housing ,hospitals? not too mention the people to run these facilities! there is a huge lag of decades before infrastructure can ever hope to catch up.
  • ai_1ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    mamba80 wrote:
    Ai_1 wrote:
    Fully agree, in general at least, I'm not familiar with the specifics in the UK but the situation is similar in many western european countries and further afield in US, Australia, etc...
    There's always a huge proportion of the population with a general aversion to change. Strangely, many of them also complain about how things are so I don't see how they can rationally have a blanket opposition to change but so it seems. The bedrock of this mindset is tradition, lack of imagination and a fixed (and fictional) idea of how the world always has been and should remain, which you already mentioned.

    Easy answers are attractive. If someone tells you who to blame and it's not you there's a temptation to join the mob. Please resist the urge. Give the topic some rational thought. Try and figure out the real answer. If you like the answer you come to, be suspicious, and check again. Hopefully it's right, but maybe you fooled yourself. We're all good at that you know! It's easy to come to a conclusion you like. It's harder but more useful if you're willing to accept the reality even when you'd prefer it to be different.

    That's what I think anyway.

    there is truth in a lot of what you say but equally it is true of people with an opposing view, the easy answer for people in the pro migration camp is to say "all is well, you are a mail reading/stuck in the mud/middle aged person with a complete lack of imagination"
    Harder to argue is for an immigration policy that allows economic migrants from EU with no limit to their numbers but at the same time, we are so scared of helping people in real need, such as the Syrians displaced from their country (4m and counting) many living in abject poverty and perfect breeding ground for ISIS, great future proofing!
    How will history judge our lack of compassion for these people? even the US is allowing in many times the number the UK is.

    So, with the Eurozone heading for another recession, how many more migrants do you think this country could cope with? (the population has risen 5m in 14years) do you think we could cope with an additional 5 million? 10miliion, 20 million? and if not, do you then not fall into the "lack of imagination" camp? and if you do think the uk can muddle along, where is the money coming from for schools, roads, housing ,hospitals? not too mention the people to run these facilities! there is a huge lag of decades before infrastructure can ever hope to catch up.
    Just to clarify, my comments weren't specifically pro or anti-immigration in the UK. I'm in Ireland and I don't know the detail of the UK situation so I'm not going to express an opinion on what does or doesn't make sense. I presume a lot of the issues around this are similar in both countries but there are plenty differences too. The Irish (of which I am one) used to be proud of not having any racism problems. We were such a tolerant nation. The reality was we were a very homogeneous nation so there wasn't much opportunity for racism. Once mass immigration started in the last 15 years or so, some people's attitudes started to seem a bit less tolerant! I don't think Ireland has a big problem, but there are the signs of it in places. Anyway, I digress. My point was lazy thinking ends in mob rule led by whoever offers easy answers and/or irrational clinging to the status quo.
    If everyone was not afraid to honestly consider the other side of each argument we'd end up with a better society, better politicians and better lives. I think!
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