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Leinders Banned

DeadCalmDeadCalm Posts: 3,872
edited February 2015 in Pro race
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/j ... sky-doctor

Didn't realise that he'd actually been charged. Not sure if Biking Bernie is here or not under another guise but, in any event, it looks like he was right and I was wrong.
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  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,904
    Why have you come to that conclusion now? The information has been known about for a couple of years.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 61,048 Lives Here
    Don't say his name.

    He'll come back to the forum like biggie smalls.
    southparkbloodymary.jpg
    tumblr_m3volc1KSI1qhjbxeo1_400.gif
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,109
    Beautifully put by one of our own

    @iain_forfar
    Yes, keep mentioning Geert was doctor at sky, you brave brave warriors for truth

    and less so by myself

    @ddraver
    I ll bet you a groat that @TeamSky is mentioned a billion more times than Rabbobank or @LottoJumbo_road
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Don't say his name.

    Can we say Howard?

    Lots of hand wringing today. And also, I popped down to my local straw man shop and they said they'd had a run today as cycling fans seem desperate to create their own.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,904
    The ironic thing about all of this is that Leinders didn't seem to be all that good at the doping business. He's still advocating doping with family blood in 2004, gets recommended a product he's unaware of that 'all the other teams are using' and then seems to be eased aside around 2005/6 in favour of Matschiner and van Mantgem and Rabobank start winning Grand Tours.

    He's made out to by some sort of lowlander Ferrari, but he doesn't seem to know anything special that you couldn't learn in a day.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • ocdupalaisocdupalais Posts: 4,017
    RichN95 wrote:
    He's made out to by some sort of lowlander Ferrari, but he doesn't seem to know anything special that you couldn't learn in a day.

    Leinders, get ye from The Deathstar, you've done Sky wrong!
    Your doping's shite and you've left an awful pong.
    Same for Yates, Bobby, Rogers... and Steve De Jongh!

    What now for the seemingly unemployable Gert?
    "Over here, Doc!", they cry, "get a job with Bert!".
  • Yellow PerilYellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    He must be doing the walk of shame as a doping doctor as, with the exception of everyone's favourite Mexican Dane,(and only then with mixed results) Rabo were gash.

    I've rated that squad far more highly since they stopped wearing orange
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • thomthomthomthom Posts: 3,574
    Lots more coming..

    https://translate.google.dk/translate?s ... edit-text=

    Although it's been no secret that UCI covered up Rabobank. Michael wrote that in his book a couple of years ago. Though, I don't recall him naming any names in that book.
  • There's only one reason a team employs a doctor like Leinders.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,109
    Can you help us out?

    Reading the decision it seems very unlikely that it was doping. He was flipping rubbish at it!
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • He was pretty good at it, just not as effective as others. As demonstrated, he also had a hot-line to the UCI to get TUEs backdated and would get a heads up on any adverse blood readings. That's got to be a marginal gain worth investing in.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,904
    He was pretty good at it, just not as effective as others. As demonstrated, he also had a hot-line to the UCI to get TUEs backdated and would get a heads up on any adverse blood readings. That's got to be a marginal gain worth investing in.
    'Hot-line'? That's a little dramatic. The contact details were on UCI website under the section about procedures for getting a TUE. And the warnings about blood readings were pre bio passport.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,109
    I don't think our man is interested in adult debate here Rich...

    Try the Clinic Rod
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • RichN95 wrote:
    He was pretty good at it, just not as effective as others. As demonstrated, he also had a hot-line to the UCI to get TUEs backdated and would get a heads up on any adverse blood readings. That's got to be a marginal gain worth investing in.
    'Hot-line'? That's a little dramatic. The contact details were on UCI website under the section about procedures for getting a TUE. And the warnings about blood readings were pre bio passport.

    My apologies, I didn't realise there was a section on the UCI website about getting backdated TUEs.

    It doesn't matter that the warnings ref blood values were pre bio-passport, the 50% HCT level was in way before then.

    If you think it completely above board and normal that a member of the governing bodies anti doping unit was acting this way then fair enough.

    The question you need to be asking is when would a team with a zero tolerance policy on doping employ, for a couple of years as a consultant, a doctor involved in running a team wide doping program that coincidentally involved riders you had also employed. The same team that is famed for its methodical approach to all aspects of cycling, with a database containing details and information on each rider in the pro peloton and with a reputation for not missing anything. The same team that started to get good results after employing this doctor as a consultant. The team that told its sponsor that it had employed the doctor to find out what other teams and riders were up to.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,109
    Sky have been going for 5 years - have you SERIOUSLY not come up with any better arguments yet?
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • ddraver wrote:
    Sky have been going for 5 years - have you SERIOUSLY not come up with any better arguments yet?

    I'm not arguing anything here, just giving a list of facts for you.

    Pro cycling is pretty rotten so please don't think that just because Sky are a british team that they aren't as dirty as the rest of them. It just makes you look silly.

    Take a look at some of the USPS fans a few years ago, they look a bit daft now and used surprisingly similar arguments. You die hard sky fans will go the same way.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,904
    My apologies, I didn't realise there was a section on the UCI website about getting backdated TUEs.
    It's section 4.8 of the TUE guidelines. You should read it. Backdated TUEs can be perfectly legitimate. But is there anything to suggest that Zorzoli was abusing this. Surely you phone him up to get a fast-tracked TUE application (as Froome did) - as the UCI's official go to man.
    It doesn't matter that the warnings ref blood values were pre bio-passport, the 50% HCT level was in way before then.
    But if you were an honest man in that UCI position and you see blood readings jump from 41 to 48 what do you do?
    If you think it completely above board and normal that a member of the governing bodies anti doping unit was acting this way then fair enough.
    I don't but let's not pretend that Leinders had some special relationship.
    The question you need to be asking is when would a team with a zero tolerance policy on doping employ, for a couple of years as a consultant, a doctor involved in running a team wide doping program that coincidentally involved riders you had also employed. The same team that is famed for its methodical approach to all aspects of cycling, with a database containing details and information on each rider in the pro peloton and with a reputation for not missing anything. The same team that started to get good results after employing this doctor as a consultant. The team that told its sponsor that it had employed the doctor to find out what other teams and riders were up to.
    They made a mistake because of all these people that now say they knew about Leinders, not a single one said anything.
    Here's the question you need to ask. If a high budget team was on the look out for someone to run a doping program, why would they hire one whose expertise seems at the level of your average nurse and then put him on the pay roll and make him available to the media in full team kit?
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,109
    ddraver wrote:
    Sky have been going for 5 years - have you SERIOUSLY not come up with any better arguments yet?

    I'm not arguing anything here, just giving a list of facts for you.

    Pro cycling is pretty rotten so please don't think that just because Sky are a british team that they aren't as dirty as the rest of them. It just makes you look silly.

    Take a look at some of the USPS fans a few years ago, they look a bit daft now and used surprisingly similar arguments. You die hard sky fans will go the same way.

    You re doing yourself a disservice here. Come on, time for something new now
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • RichN95 wrote:

    They made a mistake because of all these people that now say they knew about Leinders, not a single one said anything.
    Here's the question you need to ask. If a high budget team was on the look out for someone to run a doping program, why would they hire one whose expertise seems at the level of your average nurse and then put him on the pay roll and make him available to the media in full team kit?

    That's where you're making incorrect assumptions here I'm afraid.

    The details will come out in time but it doesn't make them look very good and certainly casts doubt on their performances.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,904
    RichN95 wrote:

    They made a mistake because of all these people that now say they knew about Leinders, not a single one said anything.
    Here's the question you need to ask. If a high budget team was on the look out for someone to run a doping program, why would they hire one whose expertise seems at the level of your average nurse and then put him on the pay roll and make him available to the media in full team kit?

    That's where you're making incorrect assumptions here I'm afraid.

    The details will come out in time but it doesn't make them look very good and certainly casts doubt on their performances.
    Are they incorrect assumptions?
    Can you show me anyone raising doubts about Leinders at Sky prior to May 2012? Any of these journalists or bloggers who claim he was infamous.

    And can you point out any part in the reasoned decision where Leinders did anything that a nursing student couldn't have done. Even Rabobank seem to have benched him by 2006.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • He was under investigation as part of the Rabobank doping scandal that came out of Rasmussens downfall. At least 2 riders Sky employed were aware of this, as were staff at Sky.

    You are entitled to believe what you choose but don't be surprised when more of the same starts to come out.
  • salsiccia1salsiccia1 Posts: 3,723
    You are entitled to believe what you choose but don't be surprised when more of the same starts to come out.

    And you'll be hanging out the bunting and celebrating the night away, I'm sure.

    Why do so many people seem to revel in this shit?
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • bompingtonbompington Posts: 7,674
    don't be surprised when more of the same starts to come out.
    Can you clarify for me - do you actually know stuff that isn't in the public domain, or are you just really, really hoping that there's more to come?
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,109
    Bomp, given Rod's past, him saying that more is going to come out is the best possible sign that this is the last we'll ever hear of Leinders...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Salsiccia1 wrote:
    You are entitled to believe what you choose but don't be surprised when more of the same starts to come out.

    And you'll be hanging out the bunting and celebrating the night away, I'm sure.

    Why do so many people seem to revel in this shit?

    I'm not really bothered to be honest. The sooner the sport cleans up, the better. Why would you automatically assume that because I have pointed out that Sky are less than 100% clean that I would revel in their downfall?

    They had the opportunity to be a clean team and to nurture British talent but they have failed on that. This is the most disappointing thing.

    I do know of other stuff but even when it is written down in print, the true blind fan boys won't believe it and the talk of level playing fields will come out again.

    At the end of the day, there is only one thing that a doctor like Leinders would be employed to do and it wasn't weighing riders or checking saddle sores, the thing otherwise is just being naive.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,904
    I do know of other stuff but even when it is written down in print, the true blind fan boys won't believe it and the talk of level playing fields will come out again.
    Go on then. Try us with this 'other stuff' that you know.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • The_BoyThe_Boy Posts: 3,099
    ddraver wrote:
    Sky have been going for 5 years - have you SERIOUSLY not come up with any better arguments yet?

    Tbf, if they'd done their background checks properly they would have saved us all a lot of trouble. I don't think they should be forgiven for that...
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  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,109
    oh bless you, did the nasty cycling team hurt you..
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • The_BoyThe_Boy Posts: 3,099
    Was that aimed at me? If so you seem to have misunderstood my post.
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  • ddraverddraver Posts: 24,109
    You ll need to explain it a bit better then. If you could bear in mind what Rich said at the top of the page we might save some time too...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
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