Amateur rider gets UKAD ban...

Johnpsanderson
Johnpsanderson Posts: 380
edited March 2015 in Amateur race
Quite surprised that this hasn't already prompted some discussion on here: http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/lat ... est-150819

Reminiscent of Dan Staite, although Jason has merely refused to be tested rather than testing positive...
Put me back on my bike...

t' blog: http://meandthemountain.wordpress.com/

Comments

  • jibberjim
    jibberjim Posts: 2,810
    So well done for UKAD to do a targeted test and presumably get the guy they were interested in, they even announced they were doing AD testing/education at a different cycle race that weekend.

    Appalling though that the guy gets to keep his result in the event where he refused the test, and also compete and podium in the UCI Masters track world championships after, if there really were no way to prevent either of those things then the rules are completely unfit for purpose. And if there was then UKAD dropped the ball totally.

    Isn't that now 100% doping rate in Nat B races over the last 4 years - every time UKAD turn up they catch a doper...
    Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/
  • Johnpsanderson
    Johnpsanderson Posts: 380
    Without knowing how it works - I would assume it is down to BC/UCI (i.e. the sport governing bodies) to revoke results - UKAD just concerns itself with the ban from competition? (I'm thinking that it was USADA that banned Armstrong, but UCI that took away his TdF titles?)
    Put me back on my bike...

    t' blog: http://meandthemountain.wordpress.com/
  • DavidJB
    DavidJB Posts: 2,019
    There needs to be much more testing on the amateur scene.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    DavidJB wrote:
    There needs to be much more testing on the amateur scene.

    Maybe, but I suspect it comes down to budget/funding/manpower at the end of the day..
  • DavidJB
    DavidJB Posts: 2,019
    Imposter wrote:
    DavidJB wrote:
    There needs to be much more testing on the amateur scene.

    Maybe, but I suspect it comes down to budget/funding/manpower at the end of the day..

    Well putting my tin foil hat on I think it more comes down to that they wouldn't like what they found and it would be very bad press for the sport!
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Maybe that as well.. ;)
  • jibberjim
    jibberjim Posts: 2,810
    Johnpsanderson wrote:
    Without knowing how it works - I would assume it is down to BC/UCI (i.e. the sport governing bodies) to revoke results - UKAD just concerns itself with the ban from competition?

    Article 9 of WADA requires automatic removal of results for any in-competition tests which fail. UKAD appears not to have followed that.

    However it appears the rules are broken in respect to the world masters award, and the cheat gets to keep that...
    Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/
  • ozzzyosborn206
    ozzzyosborn206 Posts: 1,340
    DavidJB wrote:
    There needs to be much more testing on the amateur scene.


    What makes you say that? there is never going to be much, I don't think there is much at all in UK cycling, I am guessing Staite, White and Marcel Six were all tip offs and they acted upon the knowledge they were given, it does make you wonder why, anyone heard on the grapevine what it is he supposedly took?
  • oscarbudgie
    oscarbudgie Posts: 850
    ozzzyosborn206 wrote:
    DavidJB wrote:
    There needs to be much more testing on the amateur scene.


    What makes you say that? there is never going to be much, I don't think there is much at all in UK cycling, I am guessing Staite, White and Marcel Six were all tip offs and they acted upon the knowledge they were given, it does make you wonder why, anyone heard on the grapevine what it is he supposedly took?

    I think you're right about a tip off as this came as absolutely no surprise to many people who had suspicions about him. The only surprise is that its taken this long to happen
    Cannondale Supersix / CAAD9 / Boardman 9.0 / Benotto 3000
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,744
    Who was he riding for at the time of the bust?
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • mpatts
    mpatts Posts: 1,010
    It seems likely to me that the amateur scene would be the same as the pro scene - in that the temptations to juice are the same, if access to performance enhancers is readily available*. Multiplied enormously if the chances of getting caught are approaching zero.

    *I have to admit, I have no idea how anyone would get hold of performance enhancers, and I'm a (very) amateur racer.
    Insert bike here:
  • Rodrego Hernandez
    Rodrego Hernandez Posts: 1,436
    jibberjim wrote:
    Johnpsanderson wrote:
    Without knowing how it works - I would assume it is down to BC/UCI (i.e. the sport governing bodies) to revoke results - UKAD just concerns itself with the ban from competition?

    Article 9 of WADA requires automatic removal of results for any in-competition tests which fail. UKAD appears not to have followed that.

    However it appears the rules are broken in respect to the world masters award, and the cheat gets to keep that...

    Not only that but they are being very vague as far as reporting who Jason White is. The Jason White banned doesn't match up with the details of the Jason White who won the World Masters titles. they need UCI codes and team names.
  • Johnpsanderson
    Johnpsanderson Posts: 380
    I don't think it's that unclear 'who' it is - both the race that the test was refused at, and the result from the UCI master event, are listed on the same rider profile on the BC site: http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/points ... &year=2014

    I can't say I think more testing on the amateur scene is that important - but then i've never really thought it to be an issue at my level, I have no doubt that genetics/dedication more than drugs make the difference at the level I compete at...

    According to the BC site he was riding for these guys at the time: http://www.claycrossrt.co.uk/
    Put me back on my bike...

    t' blog: http://meandthemountain.wordpress.com/
  • Rodrego Hernandez
    Rodrego Hernandez Posts: 1,436
    Johnpsanderson wrote:
    I don't think it's that unclear 'who' it is - both the race that the test was refused at, and the result from the UCI master event, are listed on the same rider profile on the BC site: http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/points ... &year=2014

    I can't say I think more testing on the amateur scene is that important - but then i've never really thought it to be an issue at my level, I have no doubt that genetics/dedication more than drugs make the difference at the level I compete at...

    According to the BC site he was riding for these guys at the time: http://www.claycrossrt.co.uk/

    The UKAD ruling rates that he is 37. The Jason White you've linked to is 42
  • Johnpsanderson
    Johnpsanderson Posts: 380
    Rodrego Hernandez wrote:
    The UKAD ruling rates that he is 37. The Jason White you've linked to is 42

    (Rather ironically) I suspect that there is a typo in the UKAD statements...
    Put me back on my bike...

    t' blog: http://meandthemountain.wordpress.com/
  • ozzzyosborn206
    ozzzyosborn206 Posts: 1,340
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    Who was he riding for at the time of the bust?


    He rode in Metaltek the same time as Marcel Six, whats the chances he was at it then too?
  • kingstonian
    kingstonian Posts: 2,847
    mpatts wrote:
    It seems likely to me that the amateur scene would be the same as the pro scene - in that the temptations to juice are the same, if access to performance enhancers is readily available*. Multiplied enormously if the chances of getting caught are approaching zero.

    *I have to admit, I have no idea how anyone would get hold of performance enhancers, and I'm a (very) amateur racer.


    I'd say the temptation to juice is far higher at pro level because it is someone's career they are trying to benefit.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,744
    At pro level there are at least the arguments as you say that they need the contract, maybe that everyone is at it and that at times teams have at least encouraged it by turning a blind eye. As an amateur it's just a case of ego or someone unable to accept their limitations - any that dopes for a national B deserves pity as well as condemnation.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • Rodrego Hernandez
    Rodrego Hernandez Posts: 1,436
    Kingstonian wrote:
    mpatts wrote:
    It seems likely to me that the amateur scene would be the same as the pro scene - in that the temptations to juice are the same, if access to performance enhancers is readily available*. Multiplied enormously if the chances of getting caught are approaching zero.

    *I have to admit, I have no idea how anyone would get hold of performance enhancers, and I'm a (very) amateur racer.


    I'd say the temptation to juice is far higher at pro level because it is someone's career they are trying to benefit.

    I think it's a load more prevalent in the 'amateur' ranks than you imagine. It's easy to get hold of PEDs and from seeing both the sudden improvement in peoples form and in some cases the sudden change in their body shape, it goes on a load more than you'd think.
  • ozzzyosborn206
    ozzzyosborn206 Posts: 1,340
    Rodrego Hernandez wrote:
    Kingstonian wrote:
    mpatts wrote:
    It seems likely to me that the amateur scene would be the same as the pro scene - in that the temptations to juice are the same, if access to performance enhancers is readily available*. Multiplied enormously if the chances of getting caught are approaching zero.

    *I have to admit, I have no idea how anyone would get hold of performance enhancers, and I'm a (very) amateur racer.


    I'd say the temptation to juice is far higher at pro level because it is someone's career they are trying to benefit.

    I think it's a load more prevalent in the 'amateur' ranks than you imagine. It's easy to get hold of PEDs and from seeing both the sudden improvement in peoples form and in some cases the sudden change in their body shape, it goes on a load more than you'd think.

    When you say amateur ranks what do you mean? are you talking about people racing in Europe or high end UK stuff chasing 'the dream' or are you talking about guys doing 2,3 cat races?
  • Rodrego Hernandez
    Rodrego Hernandez Posts: 1,436
    UK - all categories, E, 1, 2, 3 and most likely 4.

    I remember racing against a guy one easter - he was OK but nothing special. 3 months later he was build like a brick outhouse and practically had the bunch riding through and off behind him. This was at cat 2 level. I'v seen it at all levels in the UK.

    It's about time UKAD did something - they need to show they are doing their job. BC aren't interested in the bad press that positive tests would bring.
  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    Is this the same guy who was in the Comic a few years back ? Running a bike shop and training in the few hours he had in his schedule - and still winning big races ? He had a yellow Ferrari too - I remember that bit. It was very impressive at the time. Maybe with hindsight.....
  • okgo
    okgo Posts: 4,368
    Yes it is the same chap.

    He got the feature as he was the top points scorer, they seem to run an article on the top points scorer often, they did again this year with Lewis. 2011 certainly a marked out year for Jason White though, won a lot of races, though back then 30 points for midweek crits, so scoring that amount of points was somewhat easier than this last year where I think Lewis wasn't too far away from that number with only 10 on offer for midweek stuff.
    Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com
  • lyn1
    lyn1 Posts: 261
    okgo wrote:
    Yes it is the same chap.

    He got the feature as he was the top points scorer, they seem to run an article on the top points scorer often, they did again this year with Lewis. 2011 certainly a marked out year for Jason White though, won a lot of races, though back then 30 points for midweek crits, so scoring that amount of points was somewhat easier than this last year where I think Lewis wasn't too far away from that number with only 10 on offer for midweek stuff.

    Not sure why it is newsworthy. Given the scope to distort the ranking it has little value as an indicator of ability. The original article mentioned that JW was top points scorer in 2011 as if this was something exceptional, which is clearly not the case. Unfortunately, there are significant flaws in the points allocations that allow riders to top the ranking by doing a lot of low quality races and avoiding riding against good riders. JW topped the ranking with only 12% of his points from Nat A. The 2014 leader was only 3% from Nat A. yet the guy in 2nd was 97% from Nat A. So long as you can turn up to a Nat B with no pro's in attendance and pick up 60 points for a win (equivalent to 4th in a Nat A with 50 pro's present), the distortions will continue.
  • petemadoc
    petemadoc Posts: 2,331
    Seems this has made it to the main stream press

    http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/gene ... 31430.html

    more on road cc

    http://road.cc/content/news/142480-fear ... r-cyclists

    Rugby and boxing also being mentioned.

    Not a big surprise but it is pretty sad.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,709
    http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/m ... -worldtour
    _
  • Tjgoodhew
    Tjgoodhew Posts: 628
    PeteMadoc wrote:
    Seems this has made it to the main stream press

    http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/gene ... 31430.html

    more on road cc

    http://road.cc/content/news/142480-fear ... r-cyclists

    Rugby and boxing also being mentioned.

    Not a big surprise but it is pretty sad.

    None of this is a surprise - you only have to set foot in your local gym to see people that are clearly using substances that are illegal to improve performance. From what i have heard steroid abuse is rampant in amateur rugby and i personally know individuals that use steroids to improve strength for amateur football

    I would suggest if you took a sample of amateur sports people across the most popular participation sports in the UK the results would be shocking.

    I see it as a positive that at least cycling is also looking at the amateur ranks whilst most sports show very little interest in the pro ranks let along amateur
    Cannondale Caad8
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