new brakes - XT vs Zee vs Saint

sofaboy73

have been using formula 'the ones', old style & new style, on different bikes for the past 6 years and they've been great until recently. Good power & modulation and a lovely 'feel' to them when running right, however my rear has become increasingly temperamental over the past year and now looks like it needs a master cylinder rebuild. This, alongside their slightly awkward bleed set up is making me think about new brakes.

The new XT's seem to get universally well rated and are less than half the price of the formulas. However I've never used them and not got a chance to try them before buying them.

Can anyone tell me how they compare to the Formulas in terms of power, modulation and general feel? i've read reviews saying they are not that progressive in the delivery of their power and they're a little on / off - is this right? what about reliability, are they fit & forget? how easy to service & bleed are they?

are there any other brakes i should be looking at? could stretch to c£200 excl rotors

BloggingFit

I would go with XT for reliability and power. Can't say I have had an issue with them lacking modulation myself but I think it's more down to how you use your brakes. If you are ham fisted then maybe you will find issue. Shimano Zee is an alternative option if you want a bit more modulation with the power.

poah

consider Zee if you can spend up to 200

sofaboy73

POAH wrote:

consider Zee if you can spend up to 200

not sure if zee would be over kill as arent they to saints as slx is to xt, ie a cheaper entry level down hill brake? what are the big advantages of zee over XT? what sort of weight difference are you looking at?

for reference, they are to go onto my 160 all mountain bike

BloggingFit

More power being a 4 pot but then if you don't have heavy weight to slow down then it's wasted power. In most situations XT is more than adequate. Zee have better modulation but if you are good with your lever control then not really such an issue unless you are doing long DH runs where arm pump and fatigue are a factor.

Weight wise there will be a bit more excess with Zee but I wouldn't imagine more that say 100g.

sofaboy73

BloggingFit wrote:

More power being a 4 pot but then if you don't have heavy weight to slow down then it's wasted power. In most situations XT is more than adequate. Zee have better modulation but if you are good with your lever control then not really such an issue unless you are doing long DH runs where arm pump and fatigue are a factor.

Weight wise there will be a bit more excess with Zee but I wouldn't imagine more that say 100g.

as i'm 15st the extra power might come in useful!

is there any difference in performance between the zee and the saint other than the tool free adjustment of the saint?

looking at the weight, the zee & saints come in c 30grm lighter than the Formulas, but can't find any numbers for the XT

The Rookie

http://www.sicklines.com/weights/discbrakes/
Zee is heavier than XT by about 30g an end, not much if the extra braking is needed.

rockmonkeysc

Zee are great downhill brakes, I like mine but they're a bit on or off, very little modulation. Fine if you have got a stiff fork and fat sticky tyres but not good when you want fine control on a tech xc trail.
I would go for XT or SLX on an xc or enduro bike

poah

I'd go for Zee - better modulation than XT/SLX and more importantly look way cooler lol

saint are not worth the extra cash over the zee. can get zee for about £135from the germans but you'll need to swap levers round but that's not an issue as you'd have to shorten hoses anyway.

http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/shim ... ountry=190

I'm swaping my rear SLX for a saint caliper.

russyh

POAH wrote:

I'd go for Zee - better modulation than XT/SLX and more importantly look way cooler lol

saint are not worth the extra cash over the zee. can get zee for about £135from the germans but you'll need to swap levers round but that's not an issue as you'd have to shorten hoses anyway.

http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/shim ... ountry=190

I'm swaping my rear SLX for a saint caliper.

This. I just made the swap from slx to zee and found the modulation much better. Just a nicer feeling brake in my opinion, edge power or not. To be honest I found the slx and xt I have recently owned a bit on/off. Great power per pound mind!

cycleclinic

XT brakes have no problem stopping most 15st riders. If you want use a 180mm or 203mm rotor up front. For XC many use 160mm up front. ZEE and saint brakes are DH brakes, if you DH courses alot you may find the need but otherwise I think it is a waste. Shimano have braking sewn up almost no point at trying anything else unless you are weight weenie. The one thing I never found with a shimano brake is an on/off feeling.

swapping to Zee caliper may give improved modualtion but that because the fluid volume of the caliper is increased. The volume moved in the lever is not. so you will have to pull the lever more. If shimano used a longer brake lever you would be able to modulate the brakes better.

rockmonkeysc

I prefer my Deore brakes to my Zee's for xc. Both were set up by an excellent mechanic and are spot on but I think the zee's have too much initial bite where the Deore's are far more sensitive. The Zee's maybe have a touch more power but not much.

poah

thecycleclinic wrote:

swapping to Zee caliper may give improved modualtion but that because the fluid volume of the caliper is increased. The volume moved in the lever is not. so you will have to pull the lever more. If shimano used a longer brake lever you would be able to modulate the brakes better.

zee have the same master cylinder/piston etc as slx

rockmonkeysc

No they dont

poah

RockmonkeySC wrote:

No they dont

supply proof please

rockmonkeysc

I have tried xt levers on my zee calipers. It worked, but not well. Zee brakes need to displace more fluid to move the 4 pistons.

The Northern Monkey

Zee master cylinder is C.10% larger than slx... 4pot v 2pot brakes.

Fwiw, i have SLX on the Canyon and theyre outstanding. I'm 15st dry, without kit.

poah

RockmonkeySC wrote:

I have tried xt levers on my zee calipers. It worked, but not well. Zee brakes need to displace more fluid to move the 4 pistons.

but then other people have done the same and found them better. Not exactly proof is it. I'm looking for real information that shows the difference. Not trying to argue, I've been looking to see if there is any hard evidence to say the levers do have different internals

rockmonkeysc

Shimano don't publish master cylinder volumes but larger piston area needs larger fluid volume displacement.

peter413

If you think you would benefit from the Zee's then consider Zee front, XT rear. I'm well over 100kg's and use an XTR Trail rear and XTR Trail lever with Saint caliper on the front. Works brilliantly for what I want. Only reason for the Saint on the front is because it allows me to comfortably run a 180mm rotor instead of a 203mm so the overall weight is lighter because I can use a lighter rotor.

The Saint does not have more modulation than the XTR and the XTR is plenty powerful. I would have no problems running them front and rear most of the time but there are a few times when the extra power from the Saint is nice. I'd be using both XTR's though if it wasn't for the fact the overall weight is similar with the Saint and lighter rotor.

I also have Deore brakes on my hardtail and that only has 160mm front and 140mm rear rotors on it. Never had a problem with braking power. Just goes to show that riding style has a big influence on what brakes you prefer.

POAH what makes you think the two brakes do have the same internals? You're asking for proof that you are wrong but don't appear to have supplied any that you are correct. Maybe I just missed it.

poah

peter413 wrote:

POAH what makes you think the two brakes do have the same internals? You're asking for proof that you are wrong but don't appear to have supplied any that you are correct. Maybe I just missed it.

like I said above, I've not seen any information to suggest the levers are different so I'm interested to find if there is any hard information. shimano themselves don't say you can't use them or that there would be a difference in feel.

BloggingFit

Plenty using XTR levers with Saint calipers so the difference can't be that big.

rockmonkeysc

POAH wrote:

peter413 wrote:

POAH what makes you think the two brakes do have the same internals? You're asking for proof that you are wrong but don't appear to have supplied any that you are correct. Maybe I just missed it.

like I said above, I've not seen any information to suggest the levers are different so I'm interested to find if there is any hard information. shimano themselves don't say you can't use them or that there would be a difference in feel.

I have explained reasons why they would be different. The displacement needs to be different for the larger piston area.
There is also the weight difference which suggests that something is different.
Can you produce anything to prove that they are the same volume?

BloggingFit

You could measure the displacement of the different levers. If they vary then would be a good indicator that the calipers hold different volumes.

poah

RockmonkeySC wrote:

I have explained reasons why they would be different. The displacement needs to be different for the larger piston area.
There is also the weight difference which suggests that something is different.
Can you produce anything to prove that they are the same volume?

suggesting a reason doesn't = proof. weight differences are down to materials used in lever.

and again I'm not trying to argue with you over this, I'm looking for definitive proof one way or the other.

the tech doc for the zee lever doesn't show the actual piston but everything else is interchangeable

http://bike.shimano.com/media/techdocs/ ... 818476.pdf

The Rookie

RockmonkeySC wrote:

POAH wrote:

peter413 wrote:

POAH what makes you think the two brakes do have the same internals? You're asking for proof that you are wrong but don't appear to have supplied any that you are correct. Maybe I just missed it.

like I said above, I've not seen any information to suggest the levers are different so I'm interested to find if there is any hard information. shimano themselves don't say you can't use them or that there would be a difference in feel.

I have explained reasons why they would be different. The displacement needs to be different for the larger piston area.
There is also the weight difference which suggests that something is different.
Can you produce anything to prove that they are the same volume?

If the piston areas are in the same ratio then you lose a big chunk of the advantage of having the extra piston area in the calliper!

Looking at the Shimano techdocs, the external housing is the same casting for XTR/Saint and Zee/SLX, so unless the XTR has a thicker and heavier than required casting.........

peter413

FWIW my Saint/XTR hybrid feels exactly the same as the M820 Saint's I've also owned except the lever blade on the XTR is that little bit nicer.

The Rookie

I think the lever blade is interchangeable anyway looking at the techdocs.