Layering advice - Gore tex Active shell jacket

luv2ride

I've just acquired a Specialzed Evolution Gore tex Active shell jacket, to replace a Sportful Hot Pack No Rain shell. The Sportful was properly waterproof but not quite breathable enough for me.

Tried the Gore tex Active Shell jacket today - 2.5 hours at moderate to high pace, 8 degrees, not raining (although kept riding towards black clouds trying to find some!). Under the jacket I had on a PX Perform merino SS base, with a Castelli Velocissimo Team LS jersey as a mid layer. Although I felt comfortable during the ride, I was a little disappointed to find the inside of the jacket was damp and my Jersey was soaked. I am a bit of a sweater, but thought the jacket should have allowed more of the the moisture out.

Am I doing something wrong with my layering?

cheers

slowmart

You say you felt comfortable during the ride? That sums it up.

It's always a trade off and keep on mixing up your layers until your sorted but I doubt any tops will be dryish after a couple of hours quick pace

Dippydog3

You ride at a moderate to high pace.
The temperature outside is 8 degrees.
You sweat (you would even if naked).
You got wet, but were not cold.
Sounds like a result to me.

Hello?
Do you not realise that "breathable" is almost the biggest marketing BS?
Anyone who sails will confirm this. A good set of "breathable" sailing oilies will cost £600 plus and will still be like wearing clingfilm. The amount of moisture that actually comes out is a very tiny percentage.

Layers to wick moisture and keep you warm.
Ventilation for outer layers to evaporate the moisture.

Don't believe the adverts. They are all by people paid to wear the stuff.

luv2ride

Sounds like it's almost as good as I'm going to get then, at least on a dry day. I had a Gore tex paclite jacket before this which left visible "globules" of moisture on the inside - the Active Shell was only mildly damp by comparison, so an improvement over Paclite by my reckoning. The issue is clearly my expectation of being dry inside and out, especially after reading similar things from other posters on here (and the cycling press) I guess the real test would be riding in a real downpour - if only slightly moist inside :oops: after a ride in those conditions that would be a good result.

Dippydog3 wrote:

Layers to wick moisture and keep you warm.
Ventilation for outer layers to evaporate the moisture.

The jacket has no vents, apart from the full front zip.

The main limitation for me is the choice of mid layer. I can't really only use a baselayer underneath as I need to carry phone, money, bars and gels, etc. Therefore I'm limited to a the choice of baselayer (merino, polypropylene, or thermal Under Armour type) then the mid layer ( the Castelli Velocissimo LS, a thinner Endura Rapido LS, much thinner Mavic HC LS or a thick Mavic Espoir thermal LS jersey).

Does anyone have experience of a combination of base/mid layer that seems to work best for them?

d_o_g

I use a cheapo 'compression' base layer thing from ebay, think it was £15. If above 8 degrees, then just my ancient fleece backed long sleeved 'St. Raphael' jersey which the missus got me from Prendas about 8 years ago. Between 4 and 8 degrees I'll add a vest layer thing which I got from Lidl for about £3. Below 4 degrees I'll bin off the vest and put a Nike turtleneck warm, fleece backed top on between the base and the Prendas top. That can almost be too hot if its not bloody freezing. When it is 1 or less I'll put the vest on, too.

Never wear anything waterproof, if raining then I'll dress as if it is a bit colder.

I hate being cold.

ElectronShepherd

Luv2ride wrote:

The main limitation for me is the choice of mid layer. I can't really only use a baselayer underneath as I need to carry phone, money, bars and gels, etc.

There's plenty of solutions to carrying stuff with you - under-saddle, tube-mount or bottle cage container. You might be limiting your clothing choice unnecessarily by not moving the "stuff" out of clothing pockets and onto the bike.

Bucksspeedyboy

[

The main limitation for me is the choice of mid layer. I can't really only use a baselayer underneath as I need to carry phone, money, bars and gels, etc. Therefore I'm limited to a the choice of baselayer (merino, polypropylene, or thermal Under Armour type) then the mid layer ( the Castelli Velocissimo LS, a thinner Endura Rapido LS, much thinner Mavic HC LS or a thick Mavic Espoir thermal LS jersey).

Does anyone have experience of a combination of base/mid layer that seems to work best for them?[/quote]

I'm sorry, but it seems to me that someone has been taken in by a load of marketing rubbish and is over thinking this. What the hell is a 'Castelli Velocissimo LS' etc? I put on whatever I have washed that is appropriate on the day and i don't analyse how much sweat is on the inside, etc when I get back- if it's a bit damp I put it in the wash. Best bit of kit I have at the moment is a Merino wool base layer that cost about £14.00 from Costco - I can't tell you what make it is though.

MichaelW

Luv2ride wrote:

Sounds like it's almost as good as I'm going to get then, at least on a dry day.

This is your problem; wearing a waterproof in the dry. You need a non-membrane windproof.
Put all your stuff in a saddlebag and you can pick a mid-layer to suit.

ddraver

Hmm, a lot of shoulders are missing some chips today...

IME, Gore Tex Active Shell is one of the best waterproofs you can get in terms of being breathable whilst also being properly waterproof.

The next level down would be a water resistant fabric such as a Castelli Gabba or similar. Down again and you re into windproof softshell which is not waterproof at al but keeps out a shower

The balance you go for will be a question of how hard you ride vs what counts as "the weather is too bad today" for you

Merino Wool base layers are great, but only if you don't ride to hard as they don't dry to well. You could try a cheap long sleeve thin jersey to see how that works..?

Monty Dog

Merino simply doesn't wick well enough for high-effort activities IMO - might be fine for poncing about cafes drinking coffee, but not as a piece of technical sports wear IME. Some of the latest synthetic baselayers are far better, but the expectation that any 'shell' is sufficiently breathable for cycling beyond moderate pace is a bit too far - I only put a 'shell' on when it's properly raining and prefer windstopper type fabrics which are far more breathable and don't give you that clammy feeling.

luv2ride

Thanks all. The reason I name checked my long sleeve jersey was that some might recognise it as being made from Castelli Warmer and Warmer x-stretch fabric on the arms, which supposedly wicks moisture well. The upper surface of the jersey arms were particularly wet after my ride, as if the moisture got trapped between the jersey and the inside sleeves of the Active shell jacket. Sounds as if my expectations for breathability were a bit too high, possibly combined with wrong base layer and no rain! Maybe the jacket is best kept for when rain is definitely in the air

stueys

Merino actually wicks very well, the advantage of Merino is that it stays warm when wet. Which is why its a fantastic base layer for winter conditions.

There's no way around sweating in winter conditions as the number of layers you need to stay warm will sadly make it inevitable. Bear in mind that breathability reduces as waterproofing increases, I tend to wear a softshell in winter with a waterproof in my back pocket. The softshell won't keep me dry but it has windproofing at the front and breathes very well. If it starts raining then the waterproof goes on. If I know it's going to rain for the majority of the ride then I might swap the softshell for a hardshell but the tradeoff is I'm going to run hotter.

ddraver

About the only thing I can add is to restrict your "hard" rides to days with good/non-wet weather and do the long & slow rides, gently in the rain.

Plus, try and open the zips etc BEFORE you start a climb or hard bit so you don't get hot and sweaty in the first place.

cougie

Sounds similar to me on Sunday - except we had a few showers - but not enough to make me stop and cape up.

I had a LS Merino base on and this DHB Windslam Jersey. http://www.wiggle.co.uk/dhb-windslam-ro ... 1&curr=GBP

It says its a jersey - but its a lot thicker and windproof on the front with venting on the underside of the arms.

If its not raining - you dont need to ride in a waterproof. Its not going to be as breathable as non waterproofs.

Keep a cape in the back pocket in case the weather turns or you get a mechanical.

mudsucker

Dippydog3 wrote:

You ride at a moderate to high pace.
The temperature outside is 8 degrees.
You sweat (you would even if naked).
You got wet, but were not cold.
Sounds like a result to me.

Hello?
Do you not realise that "breathable" is almost the biggest marketing BS?
Anyone who sails will confirm this. A good set of "breathable" sailing oilies will cost £600 plus and will still be like wearing clingfilm. The amount of moisture that actually comes out is a very tiny percentage.

Layers to wick moisture and keep you warm.
Ventilation for outer layers to evaporate the moisture.

Don't believe the adverts. They are all by people paid to wear the stuff.

I can confirm as a sailor this is indeed true!

Doesn't seem to matter if you have very expensive gear or not, you still end up a sweaty mess if you are working hard.

ddraver

Trouble I have with sailing gear is that it's made to keep you warm whilst sitting on the rail doing chuff all...so if you do so much as scratch your ass then you sweat...

crikey

It's all about balancing your activity and the weather with your clothing choice, there is no magic formula.

Going out and riding quickly for a couple of hours? Use arm warmers, a gilet and grit your teeth.
Going out for 3-4 hours in the winter with the odd shower? Use a windproof jacket and take a showerproof jacket for the rain.
Going out in proper rain for 2-3-4 hours? Use a Gabba, or sweat inside a Gore-Tex style shell.

Nothing is breathable enough for hard cycling; that's 30 years of cycling experience, and a glance at any rainy pro race will show the number of unzipped jackets as the pace hots up.

Top tip: Merino is rubbish as a tech layer. It's the equivalent of wearing a wool jumper and simply doesn't deal with sweat as well as even the most basic synthetic layer. It's one of the most over-hyped fabrics in cycling.

jermas

Are you sure a mid layer is necessary at 8c- especially when paired up with a merino baselayer ? You're sure to generate considerable sweat with that combo. Personally I'd just wear a synthetic thermal base layer and jacket. If you need storage pockets, wear a summer jersey on top of your baselayer. Also if your mid layer has windstopper panels, that will reduce breathability further.

dj58

Luv2ride wrote:

The jacket has no vents, apart from the full front zip.

The main limitation for me is the choice of mid layer. I can't really only use a baselayer underneath as I need to carry phone, money, bars and gels, etc. Therefore I'm limited to a the choice of baselayer (merino, polypropylene, or thermal Under Armour type) then the mid layer ( the Castelli Velocissimo LS, a thinner Endura Rapido LS, much thinner Mavic HC LS or a thick Mavic Espoir thermal LS jersey).

Does anyone have experience of a combination of base/mid layer that seems to work best for them?

I have a Gore-tex Active jacket, I use a LS Sub Zero Tactel baselayer with a SS light weight summer jersey, like you for the pocket storage. I find this to be the best combination for me, though the SS jersey does get slightly damp.

The problem I think with a lot of these jackets is that they don't have under arm/side vents. I have a North Face Hyvent non-cycling specific jacket that I sometimes use when on the MTB, it has side vents which I find good for regulating overheating.

luv2ride

That's just it. I wanted the Sportful Survival as that had (very modest) side vents but is v. pricey, plus I felt I was between sizes when I tried some on last year. The Spesh jacket is the same Active Shell fabric but has no vents, but has much better reflectives for riding in rain after dark, plus I got it much cheaper, hence the purchase (and it packs down small enough for a jersey pocket) Will experiment with the LS base and SS jersey combo tonight....it's raining here!

dj58

Annoyingly for me Gore have this year updated the jacket I have to include two side vents, and of course the price has gone up. :roll:

luv2ride

It was only drizzling here so in the end I opted for my Gabba LS instead (not used it for a while). What a revelation, kept a good even temperature all the way round my 20m training route, and was on my singlespeed so worked a bit on the climbs. Dry as a bone when I got home. Will keep the Goretex jacket for full on rainy days, which is obviously what it's meant for, and experiment with those base layers.

campag79

Monty Dog wrote:

Merino simply doesn't wick well enough for high-effort activities IMO - might be fine for poncing about cafes drinking coffee, but not as a piece of technical sports wear IME. Some of the latest synthetic baselayers are far better, but the expectation that any 'shell' is sufficiently breathable for cycling beyond moderate pace is a bit too far - I only put a 'shell' on when it's properly raining and prefer windstopper type fabrics which are far more breathable and don't give you that clammy feeling.

,

Hi Monty Dog, totally agree I have been banging on for years that waterproof jackets are useless for hard training club riding, also agree with your comment on Merino wool. I use Helly Hansen comfort dry and just beef up on my choice of windproof jacket. If really cold I use an Assos 851, next down a gore bike wear fusion and finally a Assos evo jacket.

haydenm

Dippydog3 wrote:

You ride at a moderate to high pace.

Do you not realise that "breathable" is almost the biggest marketing BS?

I always thought that, a few friends of mine completely disagree so I just assumed I must just run hotter yhan everyone else. Some are better than others but as soon as I do anything moderately exercise related I start sweating even in some very high end jackets...