Ultegra 6770 DI2 Upgrade to Dura Ace Di2

hutch-judge
hutch-judge Posts: 23
edited December 2014 in Workshop
Hi, wondering if you can help, Ive got a 2013 Canyon fitted with Ultegra DI2 10 speed (6770) with seatpost battery. I would ideally like to upgrade the groupset to Dura Ace, Is there Dura Ace that will fit the existing wiring or would i need to replace everything ?

Thanks Jason

Comments

  • meanredspider
    meanredspider Posts: 12,337
    edited December 2014
    I thnk anything but the earliest Dura Ace Di2 is compatible. Where I think things become more complicated is when you mix 10 and 11 speed components - they will work but you really need to be careful about the firmware version you use. For details, take a look at the "Di2 issues" thread here - there a lnk in there I believe to a fantastic website which will give you all the details you need to know. (Edited to correct my inaccurate comment on 10 Speed DA)
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • hutch-judge
    hutch-judge Posts: 23
    Hi and thanks for the info. yes im planning on sticking with 10 speed (apart from maybe the 11 speed cranks), i was hoping to swap a part at a time so i could buy one item sell one and work through the whole system like that and hopefully the outlay will not be too excessive.
    i will have a look on the link you advise, i did have a search around but if i'm honest i got a bit lost. Is there a way of knowing if the Dura Ace is early stuff ?

    Thanks again
  • meanredspider
    meanredspider Posts: 12,337
    I've never been one to remember the numbering system but you need the e-tube stuff. Find the link and there's a compatibility section.
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • Bar Shaker
    Bar Shaker Posts: 2,313
    The early DA Di2 didn't use the same cables.

    If it can be plugged in and you are using older than v2.5.2, then it will work... despite the message on the eTube screen saying it might not.
    Boardman Elite SLR 9.2S
    Boardman FS Pro
  • 964cup
    964cup Posts: 1,362
    11-speed DA di2 (9070) will work with the existing cabling and battery. Mixing and matching DA mechs with the ultegra levers *may* work depending on the firmware versions - you can't rely on this working any more and mustn't update the battery firmware to the latest version or it definitely won't work.

    10-speed DA di2 (7970) is completely incompatible with every element of your existing setup.

    Don't forget you may need a new rear wheel (or at least freehub), and will need a cassette and chain. 10-speed chainsets are fine to use with 11-speed.
  • 964cup
    964cup Posts: 1,362
    hutch-judge wrote:
    i will have a look on the link you advise, i did have a search around but if i'm honest i got a bit lost. Is there a way of knowing if the Dura Ace is early stuff ?

    1. Model number - 10-speed DA is 7970; 11-speed is 9070; 11-speed Ultegra di2 is 6870.
    2. Connectors - 7970 "old" DA di2 uses a four-pin connector; 11-speed 9070 and Ultegra 10 and 11-speed all use a single pin "e-tube" connector.
    3. Cabling - "old" DA di2 cabling comes as a "set" that is permanently connected together (external) or has flyleads from the junction (internal). New di2 cabling is separate cables that plug into the junction.
    4. Appearance. Google RD7970 and RD9070, and FD7970 and FD9070 and so on.
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    If you want to stay 10-speed but upgrade to Dura Ace Di2, then you can't swap out the rear mech as the Dura Ace one is 11-speed.

    Otherwise, AFAIK, you can upgrade all the other parts one by one to Dura Ace Di2. It's what I did on my bikes - all Dura Ace except the rear mechs which are Ultegra 10-speed ones. I'll get around to upgrading those to 11-speed next year I suspect.
  • meanredspider
    meanredspider Posts: 12,337
    I've corrected my comment at the top - I'd have sworn there was a 10-speed eTube version of DA but I'm obviously wrong
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • 964cup
    964cup Posts: 1,362
    Pokerface wrote:
    If you want to stay 10-speed but upgrade to Dura Ace Di2, then you can't swap out the rear mech as the Dura Ace one is 11-speed.

    Otherwise, AFAIK, you can upgrade all the other parts one by one to Dura Ace Di2. It's what I did on my bikes - all Dura Ace except the rear mechs which are Ultegra 10-speed ones. I'll get around to upgrading those to 11-speed next year I suspect.
    Colin, this used to work - and still will, I think, for external battery installs - but AIUI the latest firmware for the internal battery prevents mixing 6770 and 6870/9070 derailleurs. It therefore depends what firmware is on the OP's battery as there's no downgrade option.
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    964Cup wrote:
    Pokerface wrote:
    If you want to stay 10-speed but upgrade to Dura Ace Di2, then you can't swap out the rear mech as the Dura Ace one is 11-speed.

    Otherwise, AFAIK, you can upgrade all the other parts one by one to Dura Ace Di2. It's what I did on my bikes - all Dura Ace except the rear mechs which are Ultegra 10-speed ones. I'll get around to upgrading those to 11-speed next year I suspect.
    Colin, this used to work - and still will, I think, for external battery installs - but AIUI the latest firmware for the internal battery prevents mixing 6770 and 6870/9070 derailleurs. It therefore depends what firmware is on the OP's battery as there's no downgrade option.

    Well - I'm running this setup with internal batteries no problem. I'm assuming that the batteries don't come with new firmware in them. I even went to a shop mid-ride today to buy a new battery when mine ran out - installed on the fly with no issues.

    I'm not familiar with exactly how and where firmware is installed/stored. I'm not certain the battery itself is the main storage point. Anyone know for sure?

    I'm assuming that unless you actually manually install new firmware into your system, simply plugging in a new component into the system doesn't 'upload it'.
  • 964cup
    964cup Posts: 1,362
    Each component in the system has firmware. I suspect throughput of stand-alone batteries in the distribution channel hasn't been strong enough to clear the shelves of those with the older firmware pre-installed. V3.0.5 of the battery firmware (internal-only, as far as I know) is the problem version, installed by V2.6 of the e-tube software. Carlton Bale's site has more details.

    Firmware is updated using either the dedicated PC interface or the internal batter charger (through the junction-A port) if you plug it into a PC and use the software from etubeproject. You have to do it manually - there's no automatic update - but there's no version selection - updating gives you the latest firmware on all components.

    The main risk, assuming you have the older firmware at the moment, would be a helpful LBS throwing in a firmware update as part of a service, and borking your bike in the process.
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    964Cup wrote:
    Each component in the system has firmware. I suspect throughput of stand-alone batteries in the distribution channel hasn't been strong enough to clear the shelves of those with the older firmware pre-installed. V3.0.5 of the battery firmware (internal-only, as far as I know) is the problem version, installed by V2.6 of the e-tube software. Carlton Bale's site has more details.

    Firmware is updated using either the dedicated PC interface or the internal batter charger (through the junction-A port) if you plug it into a PC and use the software from etubeproject. You have to do it manually - there's no automatic update - but there's no version selection - updating gives you the latest firmware on all components.

    The main risk, assuming you have the older firmware at the moment, would be a helpful LBS throwing in a firmware update as part of a service, and borking your bike in the process.


    So simply adding a component with updated firmware into your system will or won't update the other components? The way I read your post is that it won't.
  • Bar Shaker
    Bar Shaker Posts: 2,313
    No it won't. You have to update via eTube.

    If you have an external battery you have to plug your eTube box directly into this to update the main ecu (it's in the battery holder) and then plug into a shifter port to update the other components.
    Boardman Elite SLR 9.2S
    Boardman FS Pro
  • CiB
    CiB Posts: 6,098
    Pokerface wrote:
    So simply adding a component with updated firmware into your system will or won't update the other components? The way I read your post is that it won't.
    The etube s/w prompts that updates are available and highlights each component (shifters, battery mount, fd etc) that has a waiting update. You can opt to update each component individually or not.

    The battery doesn't have f/w - it's the battery mount that does, and the battery mount f/w version that stops the FD & RD working together if you mix the 10 & 11 spd and update the battery mount f/w beyond the version released in July this year.
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    RIght - so what the OP wanted - to update components one by one but leaving the system as 10-speed won't be an issue at all, unless someone actually updates his firmware past the version where it will work correctly.
  • 964cup
    964cup Posts: 1,362
    Pokerface wrote:
    RIght - so what the OP wanted - to update components one by one but leaving the system as 10-speed won't be an issue at all, unless someone actually updates his firmware past the version where it will work correctly.
    Assuming his battery is on the old FW, it should be OK, yes.
  • 964cup
    964cup Posts: 1,362
    CiB wrote:
    Pokerface wrote:
    So simply adding a component with updated firmware into your system will or won't update the other components? The way I read your post is that it won't.
    The etube s/w prompts that updates are available and highlights each component (shifters, battery mount, fd etc) that has a waiting update. You can opt to update each component individually or not.

    The battery doesn't have f/w - it's the battery mount that does, and the battery mount f/w version that stops the FD & RD working together if you mix the 10 & 11 spd and update the battery mount f/w beyond the version released in July this year.

    The internal battery doesn't have a separate mount - it's all one unit.
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    964Cup wrote:
    Pokerface wrote:
    RIght - so what the OP wanted - to update components one by one but leaving the system as 10-speed won't be an issue at all, unless someone actually updates his firmware past the version where it will work correctly.
    Assuming his battery is on the old FW, it should be OK, yes.


    We're talking in circles here.

    I'm saying it doesn't matter what version of firmware is pre-installed on the battery. Even if it was the newest version, it won't "infect" the rest of the system. I said, and you agreed, that firmware has to be manually updated through the whole system. Merely plugging in a current firmware battery into an older firmware system won't change anything.

    I'm trying to clarify this for myself.
  • 964cup
    964cup Posts: 1,362
    Pokerface wrote:
    964Cup wrote:
    Pokerface wrote:
    RIght - so what the OP wanted - to update components one by one but leaving the system as 10-speed won't be an issue at all, unless someone actually updates his firmware past the version where it will work correctly.
    Assuming his battery is on the old FW, it should be OK, yes.


    We're talking in circles here.

    I'm saying it doesn't matter what version of firmware is pre-installed on the battery. Even if it was the newest version, it won't "infect" the rest of the system. I said, and you agreed, that firmware has to be manually updated through the whole system. Merely plugging in a current firmware battery into an older firmware system won't change anything.

    I'm trying to clarify this for myself.

    No, if his battery (internal) is on the latest firmware it will refuse to work with mixed 10-speed and 11-speed derailleurs. I don't know if it will refuse to work with 6770 shifters and full 11-speed mechs (I think this probably should work) but mixing 6870/9070 FD and 6770 RD (or vice-versa, which was the cheap 11-speed updater route) will not work if the battery is on the latest FW whatever the firmware version on the other components.
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    I'm not sure if that is actually proven (battery not working), but I'll take your word on it.

    When I get around to upgrading to 11-speed, I'll try it out. At the very least - it sounds like A: batteries don't come with upgraded firmware currently and B. they won't mess up the rest of the system - so it would be a matter of getting an 'older' battery.

    Thanks for the info.
  • 964cup
    964cup Posts: 1,362
    Pokerface wrote:
    I'm not sure if that is actually proven (battery not working), but I'll take your word on it.

    When I get around to upgrading to 11-speed, I'll try it out. At the very least - it sounds like A: batteries don't come with upgraded firmware currently and B. they won't mess up the rest of the system - so it would be a matter of getting an 'older' battery.

    Thanks for the info.
    Remember you'll only have a problem if you mix 6770 FD and 9070/6870 RD. This mix definitely works with older battery/mount firmware, by the way - several of my club mates are running it. If you've already upgraded everything except the RD to DA (9070) - which I thought you implied you had in a previous post - then by definition you won't have a problem.
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    964Cup wrote:
    Pokerface wrote:
    I'm not sure if that is actually proven (battery not working), but I'll take your word on it.

    When I get around to upgrading to 11-speed, I'll try it out. At the very least - it sounds like A: batteries don't come with upgraded firmware currently and B. they won't mess up the rest of the system - so it would be a matter of getting an 'older' battery.

    Thanks for the info.
    Remember you'll only have a problem if you mix 6770 FD and 9070/6870 RD. This mix definitely works with older battery/mount firmware, by the way - several of my club mates are running it. If you've already upgraded everything except the RD to DA (9070) - which I thought you implied you had in a previous post - then by definition you won't have a problem.


    No - my bikes are run Dura Ace Di2 parts, EXCEPT the rear mech which is 6770. I've stayed on 10-speed until now.

    But I have no issues at all - and use the internal battery with this setup.
  • 964cup
    964cup Posts: 1,362
    Pokerface wrote:
    964Cup wrote:
    Pokerface wrote:
    I'm not sure if that is actually proven (battery not working), but I'll take your word on it.

    When I get around to upgrading to 11-speed, I'll try it out. At the very least - it sounds like A: batteries don't come with upgraded firmware currently and B. they won't mess up the rest of the system - so it would be a matter of getting an 'older' battery.

    Thanks for the info.
    Remember you'll only have a problem if you mix 6770 FD and 9070/6870 RD. This mix definitely works with older battery/mount firmware, by the way - several of my club mates are running it. If you've already upgraded everything except the RD to DA (9070) - which I thought you implied you had in a previous post - then by definition you won't have a problem.

    No - my bikes are run Dura Ace Di2 parts, EXCEPT the rear mech which is 6770. I've stayed on 10-speed until now.

    But I have no issues at all - and use the internal battery with this setup.

    We're completely at cross-purposes. That's exactly what I meant - you already have di2 9070 throughout except the RD, so when you go 11-speed, irrespective of whether you use an Ultegra 6870 or a Dura Ace 9070 RD, you'll have a completely current-generation system so your battery firmware won't matter. It's your *current* setup which could stop working if you updated the battery firmware.

    The OP's question related to upgrading a fully 6770 setup, but with the internal battery (which wasn't originally available for 6770), bit-by-bit. It was all a bit confused by the implied suggestion that there was a 10-speed e-tube version of Dura Ace - there wasn't.
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    964Cup wrote:

    The OP's question related to upgrading a fully 6770 setup, but with the internal battery (which wasn't originally available for 6770), bit-by-bit. It was all a bit confused by the implied suggestion that there was a 10-speed e-tube version of Dura Ace - there wasn't.


    I know - but that's the exact same route I took with my system. Started with full 6770, and upgraded the parts bit by bit. Someone implied that it wouldn't work. It does.

Categories