Finding that sweet spot of performance

samsemtex

Has anyone here ever gone from being occasionally fast to being fast all the time? I find it so hard to be consistent. Now i know Strava has its shortcomings but its useful for training purposes. I just cannot seem to judge my effort at all. Sometimes I go an awful lot faster than other times even though i feel like im doing a huge effort on both times. I just dont seem to know when i am going fast vs when I am going slow. Its particularly problematic on flatter/singletrack climbs. I either go too hard and "blow up" or go too easy for fear of blowing up. Ive done some long 4+ hour multi sport endurance races which I find much easier to judge effort and I always get very strong results. I know my sprint power is pretty good too but putting it all together consistently on the mtb is really hard! Any advice?

robertpb

Firstly don't beat yourself up about it.

It's the big variables in Mountain Biking, the trail is different every day, slight downpour over night and there's more drag, so because the day before it was x gear to ride next day it's x-1. If you don't read that you blow-up.

Quite a few times I've ridden with a group across flat grassland and gone from football pitch length grass to longer grass, everybody keeps to the same gear and cadence then someone always says has the riding suddenly got harder.

A small change but it will catch you out.

Then there's that off day, when you have to say perhaps tomorrow.

njee20

Firstly... no one can be fast all the time, in a 'day to day, month to month' context. It can't be done. You have a peak, which most can hold for a couple of weeks before you will fade. Generally fitness follows a bit of a sine wave, peaking in summer, when folk are riding more, and slipping in winter when mileage and intensity drops.

In terms of knowing how to pace yourself on an individual ride you either need to look at the factors that influence a good or bad ride (eg I know from Strava that I can't ride as fast into work as I can riding home, not unreasonable), and/or look at things like HR - and then it's just a case of learning what you can sustain effort wise.

samsemtex

Thanks for the answers.

robertpb wrote:

It's the big variables in Mountain Biking, the trail is different every day, slight downpour over night and there's more drag, so because the day before it was x gear to ride next day it's x-1. If you don't read that you blow-up.

Quite a few times I've ridden with a group across flat grassland and gone from football pitch length grass to longer grass, everybody keeps to the same gear and cadence then someone always says has the riding suddenly got harder.

A small change but it will catch you out.

I rarely think about what gear i am using. How big a difference do you think gearing makes? Sometimes i try to spin an easy gear fast and other times a hard gear slower. I never decide how i am going to ride something before i do it, i just do it.

njee20 wrote:

Firstly... no one can be fast all the time, in a 'day to day, month to month' context. It can't be done. You have a peak, which most can hold for a couple of weeks before you will fade. Generally fitness follows a bit of a sine wave, peaking in summer, when folk are riding more, and slipping in winter when mileage and intensity drops.

In terms of knowing how to pace yourself on an individual ride you either need to look at the factors that influence a good or bad ride (eg I know from Strava that I can't ride as fast into work as I can riding home, not unreasonable), and/or look at things like HR - and then it's just a case of learning what you can sustain effort wise.

I think the variation in times i am talking about is too great for it to be down to if i am in good form or not. I should probably be able to ride a 5 minute technical segment within 20 seconds of my best consistently. Sometimes i can be a minute off after what felt like a very hard effort. I know when i am going well as i feel like i have a really nice pedalling rhythm but getting into that rhythm is hard. I suppose that is down to gearing a lot as well.

njee20

samsemtex wrote:

njee20 wrote:

Firstly... no one can be fast all the time, in a 'day to day, month to month' context. It can't be done. You have a peak, which most can hold for a couple of weeks before you will fade. Generally fitness follows a bit of a sine wave, peaking in summer, when folk are riding more, and slipping in winter when mileage and intensity drops.

In terms of knowing how to pace yourself on an individual ride you either need to look at the factors that influence a good or bad ride (eg I know from Strava that I can't ride as fast into work as I can riding home, not unreasonable), and/or look at things like HR - and then it's just a case of learning what you can sustain effort wise.

I think the variation in times i am talking about is too great for it to be down to if i am in good form or not. I should probably be able to ride a 5 minute technical segment within 20 seconds of my best consistently. Sometimes i can be a minute off after what felt like a very hard effort. I know when i am going well as i feel like i have a really nice pedalling rhythm but getting into that rhythm is hard. I suppose that is down to gearing a lot as well.

Why should you? There's a road Strava segment I ride on my commute, quickest time is 1:44, slowest (of 320 attempts) is 3:22. A piece of singletrack near me - 123 attempts quickest is 2:21, slowest is 5:02! 20 seconds is absolutely nothing!

samsemtex

Okay so I get what you are saying about not being able to be fast all the time but there is a certain level of performance I should be able to reach at all times. Similar to how a 16minute 5k runner should always be able to run a 5k in under 17 minutes even when his form is poor so long as he is training, he isn't suddenly going to run 20mins in a race. Similarly, I think I should always be able to ride certain segments at a minimum pace when I am trying, even if it is slower than my best pace.

So today I carried out an experiment on the road bike. I just got a cadence meter so its new to me I rode the same segment twice. The first time I kept it spinning at 90rpm or just above as much as I could, I did the segment in 4.06 at an avg HR of 119bpm. I went back and started it again about 15 mins later in identical conditions. This time I didn't look at cadence and just pedalled "hard" ie. where it felt my legs were under a load all the time. Looking at the data I seemed to be averaging about 79rpm. With a better run in I did it in 3.56 but at 140bpm.

The second effort felt more similar to what my race runs feel like despite the fact it was barely any faster. Lots of effort but not really going any faster. I guess Ive been wasting a lot of energy? The first effort I think felt "too easy" despite being a nice rhythm, the second effort felt like "ooh yeah I must be going really fast now because Im pushing my legs much harder". My perception of the speed changed and I was wearing myself out much faster. In a race run where my HR is up at 185 I suppose that effect is multiplied.

njee20

Those are rather low HRs if you were genuinely trying. You seem to be confusing a higher cadence with low effort too. There's no inherent link there, you can spin a lot faster than 90rpm and go 'hard', indeed most people will time trial most effectively around 95-100rpm. If your race runs are 185bpm, and your casual 'pushing hard' is 140, then you're not pushing hard at all! This may be why you're not getting anywhere near the level you think you should be able to attain, and unless you're seriously ill there's likely nothing other than psychological factors at play there. Learn to hurt.

I also fundamentally disagree with your thought that at any time you should be able to get within x% of your best. Not a runner, so can't draw direct comparisons there, but I know that running isn't nearly as effected by environmental factors - optimum temperatures are lower and what not. The body can't process cold air as effectively when cycling, and you do slow down.

I'm not that good a rider - Expert level XC racer, won quite a lot of races in my time, including some National events, and good friends with a number of elite and pro riders, and that just doesn't hold true for cycling. Of course there is 'a' level you should always be able to sustain, but it's a short road to demoralisation looking at segment times in December and wondering why you can't replicate your June times, even with a bit of a buffer.

Another anecdote time... I lost a Strava KOM a few months back, short, sharp off road climb, 1:39 is the KOM, short section of 30%, 9% average. I'd achieved it on a nice 50 mile summer mountain bike ride without really knowing it was a segment. Targeted it last week, different bike admittedly, but more suitable - 29er hardtail not 26" FS (it's just a bridleway), lighter. Surface was good. Time was 2:10, nearly 30% slower than my best time. HR was 191 average (versus 182bpm when I got the KOM) Loads of reasons that could be - more tired, weather, just not got the high end fitness in December, stress, illness etc etc etc.

samsemtex

Great answer again. The segment is -1% so that explains the low HR a bit. The first run I did I wasnt trying hard, i was just spinning at 90+rpm. The second run was basically exactly what I would do during races ie. not quite sure how fast I should be going and always feeling like I should be pushing harder but at the same worrying about going too hard. Spinning at 79rpm does feel too slow for me though. The first effort felt very comfortable and easy, the second(faster) one felt like I was pushing moderately hard but it just didnt feel good.

njee20 wrote:

Another anecdote time... I lost a Strava KOM a few months back, short, sharp off road climb, 1:39 is the KOM, short section of 30%, 9% average. I'd achieved it on a nice 50 mile summer mountain bike ride without really knowing it was a segment. Targeted it last week, different bike admittedly, but more suitable - 29er hardtail not 26" FS (it's just a bridleway), lighter. Surface was good. Time was 2:10, nearly 30% slower than my best time. HR was 191 average (versus 182bpm when I got the KOM) Loads of reasons that could be - more tired, weather, just not got the high end fitness in December, stress, illness etc etc etc.

I would probably spend the afternoon convincing myself that I have no business on an MTB if that happened me. I probably am pretty good at demoralising myself by setting expectations too high. I suffer from a bit of social anxiety and I'm still trying to build my self esteem back up. I train/ride on my own 95% of the time so I always have that fear at the back of my head that everyone else is actually much faster than me (even people I know are neither fit nor skillful)so a bit of panic sets in sometimes when I am riding with other people or even trying to best a segment time. I put a lot of pressure on myself to always be fast and never make mistakes and I beat myself up a lot when that isnt the case. I just picture everyone else being perfect and not making errors. An expert level rider in the UK is a probably a top elite here so if you say its normal to have a significant variation in times then thats good enough for me.

So maybe there is a slight psychological element here... If I could get out of my own head I know I'd do a lot better. I entered a marathon race this year and had a crash at the very start and went right to the back. It was like the pressure was lifted off me and I felt so comfortable after that. I passed a lot of people including some who have thrashed me in races before and set PRs on the hardest climbs, but instead of feeling like I should be trying harder I actually was enjoying it and really in a zone. Then I ripped my tyre and rtd which was pretty demoralising, but I felt like a completely different rider to what I have felt like in other races. Racing is hard!

mobilekat

Another thing to remember is that any performance is not just down to the day you do it.

Things we forget, like a good nights sleep, what we had for dinner the night before, etc, and even if you need the loo can all have massive effects on speed and endurance. ( mind you I am sure I cycle faster when needing the loo!)
Also with mountain biking if you are over thinking you will tense up ( even if you don't realise it), this then slows you down, as you lose the fluidity. As you said in your last reply, once you took the pressure off yourself you actually ride better, and enjoy it more.
I think you need to try to relax more, and ride to what your body is telling you, as when push come to shove, our bodies know more about what's going on than any app, or gadget. But listen to your body, not your mind!

Good luck, and relax and enjoy the ride!

diy

Njee20 has already posted a lot of useful stuff on this, I'd only add that you may want to look a little more closely at your data and try to understand where your HR/effort zones are. perhaps have a go at calculating them or getting a Threshold test done. If you have gym membership and the gym has a wattbike with a power meter or similar you can do this test yourself by linking your HR strap. There is info on http://wattbike.com/uk/guide/functional_threshold_power You can then reset your view of your HR zones and possible look at where you might want to focus training.

The other thing I find which makes a big difference is what you ate that day. Eat too much and it will slow you down. Don't eat enough and you endurance will drop.

samsemtex

Thanks. I'm getting a fitness test done next week so that should provide a solid foundation for some real training targets to be set, as well as allowing me to have tangible info on where my fitness is right now.

njee20

Make sure it's actually applicable to the real world. A lot of fitness tests can be quite lab based, and give you a whole load of metrics that won't necessarily help you without having another test.

samsemtex

It's a KingCycle test. Ive read that these are not great. Would that be true? I'm doing it on Monday afternoon.

I went out for a spin today and it was an Enduro race simulation, shall we call it. I normally never wear a HRM during races so I did today and I think it was pretty revealing. What felt like big efforts were not really getting me into the high HR zones like I can. I was 10bpm down on my Max HR and at no point did i feel like throwing up at the end of a stage haha. Correspondingly my segment times were well off my best on the segments that I wasnt achieving high HR and they were right up there on the few ones I did reach the higher HR zones. I had two big turbo sessions during the week including last night so that probably affected my performance a bit. I'm learning a lot about my performance with my current training :-)

mattyfez

On more solid even ground I've decided I've been up shifting to soon..

After a bit of experimentation I've noted I'm keeping a slightly faster overall pace by not shifting up until the end of the gear I. E. My legs are going round quickly but my pace is such that there's almost no pedal resistance, and only shifting up then.

I've found iI don't hit the top speeds I can but average speed is a bit more consistent and a touch higher.