Gap in the market?

Moonbiker

I was just thinking is a shame you can't get a new modern 5 speed bike groupset to bridge the gap between 11 speed (seems only high end choice now) & single speed (Or 3 speed hub gear etc)

5 speed cassetes & chains last forever compared to modern 10-11 speed stuff & never seem to need indexing.

I would like ther to be a modern 5 speed groupset.

1x10 is abit like a version of this but they seem really expensive. Why not have a modern 5x2?

smoggysteve

You can still get 8 speed claris groupsets which are cheap and cheerful and I would think fairly reliable. I do see your point of a basic 5 speed but since the billy basic 8 speed is there I doubt anyone is going to make a 5 again just for a middle ground groupset

Moonbiker

Claris is bottom end though I was thinking something 105 lvl.

smoggysteve

The way tech moves nowadays. Claris is probably comparable to 105 of around a decade ago so its not as bad as it sounds.

simon_masterson

105 is fairly nicely made stuff - I have some 15-20 year old 105, and the quality is good. Technology does trickle down, but that doesn't mean that Claris is as good as old 105. 10 year old Sora would make for a better comparison.

But yes, I like 5 speed but in process of dumping it, as the supply of freewheels is just not consistent enough.

Moonbiker

But yes, I like 5 speed but in process of dumping it, as the supply of freewheels is just not consistent enough.

Yeah thats the problem

I have both a 105 peugoet 5 speed , and a now a newer bike with 10 speed 105 5700.


Would be nice to combine the best aspects of the former to be compatible with modern bikes part standards.

keezx

I' m actually building a "classic" bike with a 10 speed hub (rear spacing is 130) and will stick 7 or 8 sprockets on it, while it still looks "classical"
8 speed chains and sprockets are as good as 6 speed in the 70ties and widely available.
Want to ride the Eroica Brittanica and hope nobody notices it.....

ai_1

I doubt this is a real gap in the market as there would, I think, be relatively few people interested.
Indexing and maintenance of 10 and 11 speed systems is not really an issue in my opinion. They're pretty reliable and shouldn't need re-indexing after the cables have initially stretched. I don't know if you're correct about 5 speed lasting longer but if true that's only really an advantage if it makes it cheaper in the long run. A high quality 5 speed setup and the appropriate spares sold in small quantities would probably end up costing more than a 10 speed or 11 speed setup even if it needed spares more often. Besides - surely each 5 speed sprocket will get double the use, on average compared to a 10 speed sprocket, so the teeth would have to be about twice as hard wearing just to last as long, nevermind lasting longer. Maybe I'm missing something.

simon_masterson

Ai_1 wrote:

I doubt this is a real gap in the market as there would, I think, be relatively few people interested.
Indexing and maintenance of 10 and 11 speed systems is not really an issue in my opinion. They're pretty reliable and shouldn't need re-indexing after the cables have initially stretched. I don't know if you're correct about 5 speed lasting longer but if true that's only really an advantage if it makes it cheaper in the long run. A high quality 5 speed setup and the appropriate spares sold in small quantities would probably end up costing more than a 10 speed or 11 speed setup even if it needed spares more often. Besides - surely each 5 speed sprocket will get double the use, on average compared to a 10 speed sprocket, so the teeth would have to be about twice as hard wearing just to last as long, nevermind lasting longer. Maybe I'm missing something.

I suspect you're probably right about the costs. In terms of freewheels and chains though, they do last practically forever. It generally takes years of riding in all weathers to genuinely wear a freewheel out. I've broken one (this is a rare occurrence) and broken a sprocket on one (which I intend to replace), but I've mostly changed for new ratios/speeds.

rolf_f

Ai_1 wrote:

I don't know if you're correct about 5 speed lasting longer but if true that's only really an advantage if it makes it cheaper in the long run.

It would last longer. A lot longer - if you had a 135mm axle spacing with a 5 speed cassette the teeth could be engineered wider than they were on the old 5 speed racers - they'd last much longer even if they were used more frequently (though this really only applies to how frequently the smallest sprockets are used - it wouldn't be double the amount).

The premise is a good one but you may well be right in that it wouldn't sell. It ought to though. If, in hilly Yorkshire, I need 10x2 gearing (and that isn't undebateable!), I cannot for the life of me work out why anyone in London for example needs more than 2x5 or even 1x5. But need and want are two different things.

smoggysteve

Convince the big three there is a big enough market for it to become cost effective for them. I dont think you can

simon_masterson

Rolf F wrote:

Ai_1 wrote:

I don't know if you're correct about 5 speed lasting longer but if true that's only really an advantage if it makes it cheaper in the long run.

It would last longer. A lot longer - if you had a 135mm axle spacing with a 5 speed cassette the teeth could be engineered wider than they were on the old 5 speed racers - they'd last much longer even if they were used more frequently (though this really only applies to how frequently the smallest sprockets are used - it wouldn't be double the amount).

Very good point, hadn't thought of that.

It makes me wonder though, as there are a lot of old bikes out there, and clearly a decent level of demand for retro cycling, is there a market for good quality 5/6/7 speed freewheels? Sachs and Regina should do one last production run and I'll stock up on 12 and 13 ups for life. I'd probably only need 2.

iron-clover

Yup, I don't think anyone will ever make a brand new 5 speed groupset. People have gotten so used to having at least 8 gears (and I see more 10speed than anything else on the clubruns) that going back to 5 gears wouldn't feel as good, and as the 8 speed components are already cheap as chips and are already fairly durable.

None of the groupset manufacturers will want to put effort into designing and building a groupset that is both 'inferior' to their current models that only few people will buy, and that will last longer between requiring to purchase new parts. They just wouldn't make money out of it.

Moonbiker

It would last longer. A lot longer - if you had a 135mm axle spacing with a 5 speed cassette the teeth could be engineered wider than they were on the old 5 speed racers - they'd last much longer even if they were used more frequently (though this really only applies to how frequently the smallest sprockets are used - it wouldn't be double the amount).

Yeah that was the idea a modern freehub 5 speed with 135mm spacing & either STI shifters, or downtube version.

I suppose the trouble is that they would last forever, so they wouldn't sell mainly due to this, as they would hardly ever need replacement hence not worth developing for the volume they would sell.

Though can't you kind of say the same about single speed?

I cannot for the life of me work out why anyone in London for example needs more than 2x5 or even 1x5. But need and want are two different things

What might good for the consumer as a product to suit the bike riding they do isn't always the same as whats good for the manufacturer to promote & sell I suppose. :roll:

alan_sherman

I wouldn't be surprised if the mountain biking world tried this first...

I started on non-index 5 speed freewheels. My jumps to 7 speed index, then 8 speed STI were real progression to a better solution. The move to 10 speed from 8 (I skipped 9 speed as I was down the pub) had a really noticable drop in chain life which I don't like. Chain death results in cassette and chainring death too. It is now cheaper to buy a new chainset than replace rings. A crazy situation!

The main issue with more speeds is the lack of chain durability - that is what needs to be fixed. Another concern was rear wheel ofset, but that seems to work OK even with the increased 11 speed offset.

I hate the idea of 11 speed (10 seemed a 'natural' number) but I love the idea that finally the different company's cassette spacing is now compatible.

Sounds like I want a durable 10 speed cross-manufacturer (and cross road / off-road) standard.

Anyone tried an 11 speed shimano hub with 8 speed cassettes expanded with two extra cogs and a shiftmate on 10 speed shifters? Thinking about it - there wouldn't be enough space for more than 9 cogs