Gaggia Classic or Ricolini espresso machine ?

DCI Gene Hunt

Yesterday I called into the coffee merchants with my missus that I referred to in the great place to source coffee beans thread , I had them make me a barista 1887 3/4 santos roast double espresso which had the most divine crema and the coffee packed a punch like a heavyweight. Got me thinking if I should pick up an espresso machine that is easy to use , has a milk steamer and makes terrific coffee. Did a bit of reading the standouts were Gaggia Classic and Ricolini , anybody have these machines and can comment on how they perform ?

I could still taste the complex flavours of the barista 1887 double espresso on my palate hours after I had consumed it and it was just awesome !

il_principe

There's no point trying to recreate proper espresso at home unless you are willing to fork out on a commercial grade machine and grinder.

For home use you're better off sticking with black coffee made a different way. My preference is via a Hario V60 but there are loads of options.

spasypaddy

keep and eye on amazon black friday deals this week i reckon they'll have some machines up for grabs

walkingbootweather

While Il Principe may have a point that home machines cannot match commercial beasts, I still think you can make a decent brew at home. I picked up a Dualit 3 in 1 locally off ebay for £24, just so I could give it a try and was quite impressed with the results. The quality of the coffee does make all the difference though. I found that keeping some decent beans in the freezer and grinding just what I needed each time using a cheap (£10) grinder gives a pretty good result. I'm sure there are better machines and grinders than what I have got. Does n+1 apply to coffee machines and grinders do you reckon?

il_principe

walkingbootweather wrote:

While Il Principe may have a point that home machines cannot match commercial beasts, I still think you can make a decent brew at home. I picked up a Dualit 3 in 1 locally off ebay for £24, just so I could give it a try and was quite impressed with the results. The quality of the coffee does make all the difference though. I found that keeping some decent beans in the freezer and grinding just what I needed each time using a cheap (£10) grinder gives a pretty good result. I'm sure there are better machines and grinders than what I have got. Does n+1 apply to coffee machines and grinders do you reckon?

I've got had a Dualit machine. Gave it away in the end. Yeah it made an ok espresso but it was never great - and that's with good beans (I use Monmouth) and a burr grinder. I find coffee from a V60 is far better and leave proper espresso as a treat (usually reserved for when I'm in the queue to buy beans).

kiwimatt

Il Principe wrote:

I've got had a Dualit machine. Gave it away in the end. Yeah it made an ok espresso but it was never great - and that's with good beans (I use Monmouth) and a burr grinder. I find coffee from a V60 is far better and leave proper espresso as a treat (usually reserved for when I'm in the queue to buy beans).

At the risk of unleashing coffee anorak carnage it is possble to make excellent espresso at home but you have to spend a wee bit - I'm not surprised the results were meh with a Dualit which is a thermoblock machine.
Minimal requirements 1. Good Grinder (the most important thing - don't even bother buying a machine otherwise) 2. Proper Machine with boiler and commercial sized portafilter (Gaggia Classic is fine and then on upwards) 3. Fresh beans
This combo has long been popular as a 'proper' starter (no endorsement of the supplier just convenient link):
http://www.myespresso.co.uk/product.php ... wwodWmUAeQ
You need to be a little bit obsessive to get the best results and things can quickly escalate to the superbike level if you are that way inclined and lurk on coffee forums...but hobbies are good right?

jonny_trousers

I have the Gaggia Classic, but it's been sat broken on my countertop for about a year now. It needs a new pump, and it's almost certainly my fault that it does so (anyone know a good repairer in London?).

When it was working it could be a bit hit or miss, to be honest. Again, that might be my fault for not studying the way of the espresso enough. At it's best, it was fantastic, but at its worst it was quite poor (espresso with no crema is pretty grim, no matter how good the coffee.

It's a nice looking machine, though, and satisfyingly utilitarian. Once I've got mine fixed I'll take greater care over what I'm doing and see if I can get top results every time.

iPete

Buy a good electric burr grinder first, one that's capable of good espresso later on.
This will improve any brewing method for home.

I've got a second hand gaggia classic, does a good job but you need to put the effort into getting everything right.

kiwimatt

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

I have the Gaggia Classic, but it's been sat broken on my countertop for about a year now. It needs a new pump, and it's almost certainly my fault that it does so (anyone know a good repairer in London?).

Is the pump definitely gubbed or does it just need a descale? If you are in any way fettling inclined they are not difficult to work on and the pump itself is only about £12.
Or send it off to Gaggia? http://www.gaggia.uk.com/#!/Repair-and- ... ort=normal

jonny_trousers

kiwimatt wrote:

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

I have the Gaggia Classic, but it's been sat broken on my countertop for about a year now. It needs a new pump, and it's almost certainly my fault that it does so (anyone know a good repairer in London?).

Is the pump definitely gubbed or does it just need a descale? If you are in any way fettling inclined they are not difficult to work on and the pump itself is only about £12.
Or send it off to Gaggia? http://www.gaggia.uk.com/#!/Repair-and- ... ort=normal

Cheers. Yeah, the pump's definitely gone. My fault for letting the water reservoir run out so that air got in to it too many times. I was really crap about descaling it too until I realised I had to. I did open it up and saw how wonderfully simple it looked, but it's not a job for the likes of me. Thanks for the link.

notsoblue

The Gaggia classic is a fun machine to play around with, but you soon learn about the limitations of the device. The temperature and pressure isn't particularly consistent, so you'll be going crazy trying to temperature surf to avoid under brewed shots. You can upgrade the thermostat, and mod it with temperature and pressure gauges, and get an alright shot out of it. But after all the expense and hassle you ultimately just end up with an "OK" espresso machine with a tiny boiler. You won't be able to reliably replicate the espresso you've had from a professional machine.

If I were you, I'd spend money on a decent grinder, some scales, a vacuum brewer and/or a V60 dripper. Oh, and a Pact subscription...

MBCaad8

I think this thread may have just saved me a bob or two.

Like the look of that vacuum.

TheBigBean

This is a genuine question (I hate all forms of coffee), but why is it hard to mix water and coffee beans? How many variables are there with the two ingredients?

I guess the following:
1. Bean quality
2. Size of the ground coffee bits
3. Water temperature
4. Water pressure.
5. Water quality?

What am I missing? I would have naively thought that item 1 was the hardest to control.

notsoblue

MBCaad8 wrote:

I think this thread may have just saved me a bob or two.

Like the look of that vacuum.

Its my favourite method for making coffee, its a great way to consistently get flavour from good beans without spending a fortune.

notsoblue

TheBigBean wrote:

This is a genuine question (I hate all forms of coffee), but why is it hard to mix water and coffee beans? How many variables are there with the two ingredients?

I guess the following:
1. Bean quality
2. Size of the ground coffee bits
3. Water temperature
4. Water pressure.
5. Water quality?

What am I missing? I would have naively thought that item 1 was the hardest to control.

Well in the case of the Gaggia for example the Water temperature can oscillate by as much as ~15 C depending on where it is on the warming cycle. Some graphs.. Proper espresso extraction occurs between 90-96C, and a Gaggia can be well under that. The issue is that theres no temp readout on a standard Gaggia Classic so its mostly guesswork unless you mod it. Temperature will also affect the pressure.

tgotb

TheBigBean wrote:

What am I missing?

You're missing the whole point...

It's a bit like describing the fundamental components of a bicycle and asking what you're missing. When cyclists get bored with debating the pros and cons of clinchers vs tubs, Shimano vs Campag, carbon vs steel, road vs TT etc, coffee equipment and brewing techniques provide a natural vehicle for the continued battle of one-upmanship...

You may not be able to maintain 330W FTP, or rail that sick berm, but if you can knock a better crema than a barista you can still command the respect of the masses. Or something like that...

TheBigBean

Right. I've got it. I make a great cup of tea with a kettle, tea bag and milk. Beat that.

TheBigBean

notsoblue wrote:

Well in the case of the Gaggia for example the Water temperature can oscillate by as much as ~15 C depending on where it is on the warming cycle. Some graphs.. Proper espresso extraction occurs between 90-96C, and a Gaggia can be well under that. The issue is that theres no temp readout on a standard Gaggia Classic so its mostly guesswork unless you mod it. Temperature will also affect the pressure.

Thanks. That's interesting. I had thought achieving an exact temperature would be a trivial step. I guess it is easier to achieve 100C than 95C.

pblakeney

TheBigBean wrote:

Right. I've got it. I make a great cup of tea with a kettle, tea bag and milk. Beat that.

Not with a tea bag you don't.

Good enough for your taste possibly, but not great.

tgotb

PBlakeney wrote:

Good enough for your taste possibly, but not great.

Bit OT, but I've sometimes wondered whether developing a refined taste in coffee/wine/tea/whatever is actually a good thing. For instance, I have a Gaggia espresso machine which I use with pre-gound coffee and little finesse, but I enjoy what I get out of it. I also find the free coffee from the machine in my office bearable. If I put a lot more care into making my own coffee "properly", I'm sure the results would be better, but would that then mean I had to spend 3 quid a pop on "proper" coffee in the office? Would I get less enjoyment out of a cup of coffee made by a non-expert friend?

I'm not having a go at the coffee buffs btw, more of a philosophical question...

rick_chasey

TGOTB wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Good enough for your taste possibly, but not great.

Bit OT, but I've sometimes wondered whether developing a refined taste in coffee/wine/tea/whatever is actually a good thing. For instance, I have a Gaggia espresso machine which I use with pre-gound coffee and little finesse, but I enjoy what I get out of it. I also find the free coffee from the machine in my office bearable. If I put a lot more care into making my own coffee "properly", I'm sure the results would be better, but would that then mean I had to spend 3 quid a pop on "proper" coffee in the office? Would I get less enjoyment out of a cup of coffee made by a non-expert friend?

I'm not having a go at the coffee buffs btw, more of a philosophical question...

It depends what you're trying to get out of it, ultimately.

If it's just the enjoyment or not of a cup of coffee, it's debateable, but a fairly easy conversation. Boils down to how much more pleasure those of a refined palate get for a good, effort/money expensive coffee, versus the pleasure of a less refined palate, etc.

However, like everything (as per the UKIP thread), there's a class element to it too, and I think a lot (not all!!) of people enjoy having refined tastes because it elevates them above other people in some way - class or otherwise.

I definitely know some coffee snobs who seem to enjoy conversations that are basically being snobby about other coffee (and by extension, people), as much as they do coffee.


Then there's the whole nerdy aspect - some people enjoy the process of being nerdy about certain things. They get excited by the process of making coffee and the process of achieving a 'better' or 'more refined' coffee.

Then there's the people who get excited about kit..Blah blah.

I've given this too much thought.

kiwimatt

Rick Chasey wrote:

some people enjoy the process of being nerdy about certain things

Guilty. :? Enjoy the process as much as the result. But then I am one of those who like fettling the bike almost as much as riding it.

But there's no excuse for being a dick about it. A fiver bottle of plonk or a mug of Tetley made by a mate is just fine with me. In answer to previous query the only thing I really can't take much of anymore since finding the way of the bean is low quality instant coffee - the odd nescafe is fine but the real freeze dried floor sweepings are headache inducing. But finding the enjoyment whatever the quality level is mostly about the state of your own mind.

pblakeney

TGOTB wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Good enough for your taste possibly, but not great.

Bit OT, but I've sometimes wondered whether developing a refined taste in coffee/wine/tea/whatever is actually a good thing. For instance, I have a Gaggia espresso machine which I use with pre-gound coffee and little finesse, but I enjoy what I get out of it. I also find the free coffee from the machine in my office bearable. If I put a lot more care into making my own coffee "properly", I'm sure the results would be better, but would that then mean I had to spend 3 quid a pop on "proper" coffee in the office? Would I get less enjoyment out of a cup of coffee made by a non-expert friend?

I'm not having a go at the coffee buffs btw, more of a philosophical question...

It is all about finding your acceptance level v preference level v proper treat v over extravagant (snobbish, if you like).
For me it would be:-
Coffee - Nescafe v homemade mocha pot v proper barista coffee v over priced barista/home machines.
Tea - Most bags v Tetley v loose black tea leaves v over priced tea room.
Bikes - Ribble v Gios v Time v Anything with a car brand.

Loosely speaking. And everyone will be different.

Back OT:- It is mostly down to the beans, freshness and grind. I have had some rotten coffee out of some fancy machines.

DCI Gene Hunt

Those with a palate that appreciates the tastes of fine coffee and enjoy the process of creating fine drinks consistently will know exactly what this thread is asking. There are however those who couldn't tell a cup of dirty water from a window cleaners bucket ( also known as instant coffee ) from a high end cup of fine roast and this thread will be of less value to those people.

pangolin

If you want to go down the espresso route I use a Gaggia Classic and this grinder: http://www.happydonkey.co.uk/hd0866-iberital-mc2-auto.html I get pretty consistently decent espresso. Not as good as you would from a commercial machine of course. But as people have said, you learn what your machine can do and if you are interested and mess about a bit you'll get good at it.

If you decide to do down the brewed coffee route I would choose a V60 pourover or an Aeropress over a vacuum/syphon coffee because

1) They are quite a lot cheaper
2) You can control the variables so much more (if you end up enjoying it, wanting to experiment etc)
3) There is less washing up and you can't break them (if you get a plastic V60).

If you go down the brewed coffee route make sure you still use a decent grinder. A porlex or a hario ceramic are both good but you are standing there grinding for a couple of minutes (if you want 18 grams of coffee, which is a good target, you can do it while the kettle boils easily).

il_principe

Rick Chasey wrote:

some people enjoy the process of being nerdy about certain things

This is called a 'hobby'

No?

rick_chasey

Il Principe wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

some people enjoy the process of being nerdy about certain things

This is called a 'hobby'

No?

Only if you're a nerd.

Levi_501

Go for a Bialetti stove top jobbie.

http://www.bialetti.it/uk/catalogue/pro ... p?id_cat=4

jonny_trousers

I'm certainly not a coffee snob, but I do like a good espresso. For me, beyond at least semi-decent beans, that comes down to the crema. If it doesn't have the crema then it's not an espresso and in order to get that you need a machine that brews through pressure. I didn't always get that right with the Gaggia, which frustrated me.

notsoblue

Levi_501 wrote:

Go for a Bialetti stove top jobbie.

http://www.bialetti.it/uk/catalogue/pro ... p?id_cat=4

I've had a couple of these. They're pretty good, I'd recommend getting a stainless steal one over the usual (zinc or aluminium?) type.

CRAIGO5000

Yes. It is worth it and can be done properly for very little outlay.

I have a Gaggia Classic and modified the steam wand (Rancilio steam wand)
You'll never get good coffee unless you have a good grinder. I've got a Rancilio doserless and it's consistently superb.

Don't buy the most expensive beans you can find in an attempt to think they are the best. The best are the freshest. I've found that my local Sainsbury fairtrade espresso bean is top notch (but this could vary store-to-store). Very dark and still wet from roasting and only £2.30 for 250g.

I can make a mean Espresso, Americano or latte art'd girls drink with that little set-up. The Rocky is a conical burr grinder. You'll not get a decent grind out of an electric blade etc. You'd be better spending 10 mins with a hand grinder if really doing it on the cheap.