Do threaded headsets and quill stems have to go together?

Manc33

Old steel frames take a threaded headset and quill stem. Modern frames take a threadless headset and a stem that clamps to the outside of the fork steerer.

My aim would be to use a threaded headset on an old frame but with a normal stem clamped to the outside of the fork steerer, is that impossible?

Reason I ask is I have a 1960s Pennine steel 531 frame and want to use it.

Actually looking again at quill stems they can be raised and lowered really easily unlike newer setups messing about with spacers on the steerer. Then again you can lose the end of a quill stem in your fork steerer, the good old days! I guess each has advantages and disadvantages, I just see quill stems as a step backwards but maybe I am wrong. The other thing about newer setups is they have a cut down fork steerer and so, have less options for raising and lowering, compared to a quill stem.

For example those long quill stems on Sheldon Brown's site with an extra 2.5" of movement.

keezx

Yes, with an adapter you can use any A-head stem you like.

https://www.google.nl/search?q=A-head+a ... 24&bih=699

Advantage: Bar height easy ajustable
Disadavantage: heavy part, but who cares with an old steel bike?
Most annoying with a quillstem (at least the old ones) was that you had to take the tape and brake off to mount another stem (no loose faceplate)

Manc33

Keezx wrote:

Yes, with an adapter you can use any A-head stem you like.

https://www.google.nl/search?q=A-head+a ... 24&bih=699

Cheers buddeh.

So "threadless" and "Ahead" and "integrated" is all the same thing?

This is why I never find anything, I don't know what it is called. :oops:

Well I do, but it has two other more commonly used names, I just call it threadless.

I am less bothered about weight than I am about reliability. :P I never used to be that way...

keezx

Threadless and A-head is the same.
Integrated is a different thing, an A head headset can be integrated or not (position of the bearings in side or outside the head tube)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headset_%28bicycle_part%29

No reason to be bored the next hour.....

Manc33

Keezx wrote:

Threadless and A-head is the same.
Integrated is a different thing, an A head headset can be integrated or not (position of the bearings in side or outside the head tube)

Cheers Keezx. I had no idea those adapter things existed lol. It was my main worry, before the BB shell, rear dropout distance, odd dings, rust...

Once I have hacksawed off the old bottom bracket (crank threads stripped, no chance of pulling that at home) I can weigh the frame. If it is even 200g lighter than my Triban 3 I am swapping to it, should be a smoother ride and despite the Triban 3 looking like some sort of cross between a race frame and touring frame, the clearance on the fork leaves no margin for error on 25c M plusses.

keezx

I may have lying around an adapter, but shipping from here is 9€, so maybe not worth it.

About the frame weight:
Not much difference between an old light steel frame and a cheap alloy frame at all indeed.
When a bike is 10kg I much prefer the steel frame.....

ugo.santalucia

Manc33 wrote:

Once I have hacksawed off the old bottom bracket (crank threads stripped, no chance of pulling that at home) I can weigh the frame. If it is even 200g lighter than my Triban 3 I am swapping to it, should be a smoother ride and despite the Triban 3 looking like some sort of cross between a race frame and touring frame, the clearance on the fork leaves no margin for error on 25c M plusses.

Stick to the topic, don't start with the usual blurb and nonsense that will just lead to another locked thread... it did start quite well, keep it inside the lines

term1te

Don't clamp an A-head stem to a threaded fork steerer. I did once, it sheared clean off at a round about, sending me sprawling in front of a car, which fortunately had good brakes and a driver with fast reactions. I'd picked up a very nice uncut polished aluminium set of forks designed for use with a quill stem. As so much of the steerer poked above the headset I clamped on an A-head style stem I had lying about. Worked fine for a few weeks, then snap. I was left still holding the handle bars, which were not connected to the bike anymore, whilst out of the saddle. As well as nearly going under a car, the remaining steerer was mm from emasculating me in a nasty crutch pointy metal bit coming together.

Use an adaptor, or a quill stem, which look much better anyway.

rafletcher

Keezx wrote:

Most annoying with a quillstem (at least the old ones) was that you had to take the tape and brake off to mount another stem (no loose faceplate)

Not true. I had a 3TTT stem that had a single bolt fixing faceplate that allowed the bar to be released so a different length stem could be fitted.

ugo.santalucia

rafletcher wrote:

Keezx wrote:

Most annoying with a quillstem (at least the old ones) was that you had to take the tape and brake off to mount another stem (no loose faceplate)

Not true. I had a 3TTT stem that had a single bolt fixing faceplate that allowed the bar to be released so a different length stem could be fitted.

True, but they were very rare and very ugly... the real counter argument is that we didn't feel the urge to upgrade a stem back in the 80s

mercia_man

Those adaptors mentioned by Keezx work well and are readily available and cheap. I got one for my wife's electric bike from Halfords. They fit just like a normal traditional quill stem, with adjustability up and down, and then you clamp your modern stem around it. Very simple to install.

keezx

rafletcher wrote:

Keezx wrote:

Most annoying with a quillstem (at least the old ones) was that you had to take the tape and brake off to mount another stem (no loose faceplate)

Not true. I had a 3TTT stem that had a single bolt fixing faceplate that allowed the bar to be released so a different length stem could be fitted.

True, but they were quite rare.

Manc33

I expected those adapters to be pricey like £60+ but at £15 its not so bad. I agree quill stems do look better, I just don't like having that wedge thing that can accidentally be unscrewed off.

Thing is, the Ahead adapter has a wedge thing on the end of it like a quill stem anyway and thats the part I wanted to avoid. :P

I thought there might be some kind of adapter that avoids the wedge thing having to be used. I guess thats where the head tube would need totally redoing so it could take an Ahead headset.

keezx

Any adapter has a wedge , nothing wrong with that, does not come loose if proper torqued, it's a technical sound solution.
It has nothing to do with the head tube, for A head you just need a long steerer.
The BBB adapter allows to be fitted in the old , short, steerer (threads cut off) and mount an A head set.
With the BBB you can convert the old fork in a threadless fork.
A threadless fork is obvious better but it works (done it myself)

nicklouse

Manc33 wrote:

I thought there might be some kind of adapter that avoids the wedge thing having to be used. I guess thats where the head tube would need totally redoing so it could take an Ahead headset.

Nope and nope.

Change headset to a threadless one and buy a fork to suit.

Simple really.

Manc33

nicklouse wrote:

Manc33 wrote:

I thought there might be some kind of adapter that avoids the wedge thing having to be used. I guess thats where the head tube would need totally redoing so it could take an Ahead headset.

Nope and nope.

Change headset to a threadless one and buy a fork to suit.

Simple really.

You mean some sort of integrated headset can just go in an old steel frame anyway? I thought you were limited to threaded only on such old frames, hence asking about adapters.

imposter2.0

An 'integrated' headset will not go into an old steel frame. Old steel frames will most likely take a 1" external headset, not an integrated headset. It is possible to buy 1" external aheadsets but, as above, you will need a threadless fork.

Forget the word 'integrated' - it is confusing you and it's not relevant in this case.

Manc33

Imposter wrote:

An 'integrated' headset will not go into an old steel frame. Old steel frames will most likely take a 1" external headset, not an integrated headset. It is possible to buy 1" external aheadsets but, as above, you will need a threadless fork.

Forget the word 'integrated' - it is confusing you and it's not relevant in this case.

Something like this?

http://www.tredz.co.uk/.Miche-1-Inch-Th ... tAodbkcApw

Whats confusing me is you saying "external". :P

So that linked to above isn't external? Or... they all are anyway?

keezx

All 1"headsets are EXTERNAL as in your link.
As I posted early in this thread, integrated refers ONLY on the position of the bearings and has nothing to do with Threadless/ Ahead.
Integrated: bearings direct in the frame without separate cups.
External: Bearings in cups outside head tube.
Semi-integrated Bearings in cups inside head tube.
The head tube has nothing to do with A head/Threadless, only with the steerer and tightening the bearings.
You didn't read the Wikilink, it's all there.

nicklouse

TBH just take it to a bike shop and pay for it to be done to what you think you want as it will be cheaper for you than buying the wrong stuff and trying to make thinks work that will not work together.

But I seriously sugest you do some reading on Parktools.

Manc33

Cheers nicklouse I did find a Park Tools page before that seemed to explain a lot of it.

imposter2.0

Manc33 wrote:

Something like this?

http://www.tredz.co.uk/.Miche-1-Inch-Th ... tAodbkcApw

Whats confusing me is you saying "external". :P

So that linked to above isn't external? Or... they all are anyway?

Something exactly like that. That is an external headset, for 'ahead' type fitment. Threaded steerers are usually cut too short to be useful in a threadless application, so it is 99% likely that you will need a new (unthreaded) fork, as well as the headset.

This is nowhere near as complicated as you are making it sound...

styxd

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Manc33 wrote:

Once I have hacksawed off the old bottom bracket (crank threads stripped, no chance of pulling that at home) I can weigh the frame. If it is even 200g lighter than my Triban 3 I am swapping to it, should be a smoother ride and despite the Triban 3 looking like some sort of cross between a race frame and touring frame, the clearance on the fork leaves no margin for error on 25c M plusses.

Stick to the topic, don't start with the usual blurb and nonsense that will just lead to another locked thread... it did start quite well, keep it inside the lines

the blurb and nonsense is the best bit! Some people just need to vent their streams of consciousness, surely the workshop is the best place to do it?

With regards to the hedset/forks/frame, could be more hassle then it's worth. Depending on geometry and material of your frame, you could end up with a "dead" feeling bike that rides like a bit of a barge.

Save youself the hassle and get something second hand off ebay, made from light weight tubing. Like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SCAPIN-Team-f ... 3a9b871917

Manc33

It is a lot of messing about but it would only be getting restored for sentimental reasons.

The truth is, for the amount that bike got used, it will still have a lot of life left in the headset thats on it, I just don't like it because of the little bung thing you can lose off the end of the quill stem.

Tell me then, if a quill stem is adjustable up and down like they are and threadless ones need spacers, WHY did they change it? Marketing? Something new comes out so people think its better? It isn't better not being able to adjust the stem up and down.

There was no inherent problem with quill stems, as decades of cycling proves.

ugo.santalucia

Manc33 wrote:

Tell me then, if a quill stem is adjustable up and down like they are and threadless ones need spacers, WHY did they change it? Marketing? Something new comes out so people think its better? It isn't better not being able to adjust the stem up and down. .

Finally a sensible question...
The Ahead set took over because for equal weight can be made stiffer. Quill stem were inherently a tiny bit "wobbly", which did work well at the time... these days everything is a lot stiffer and a quill stem on a stiff set up just wouldn't work. Then of course with carbon steerers, wedges and expanders are a no go area.

The idea is: if you have it, keep it as it has some nice features, like the one you mentioned, if you don't, move on

nicklouse

They also made the forks heavier and more expensive.

The whole on the inside had to be machines to a ceritin tolerance. The tube walks also had to be thicker steel.

So the rules out any other material.

rolf_f

Manc33 wrote:

I just don't like it because of the little bung thing you can lose off the end of the quill stem.

Exactly how are you going to lose 'the little bung thing'? Are you concerned that whilst riding along you might get bored and start undoing the stem bolt or something?

Honestly, if you can't manage the mechanical complexities of a quill stem then really you shouldn't be trying to tie your own shoelaces either.

Just leave the poor thing alone........

imposter2.0

As above - especially the shoelace bit. I rode thousands of miles on quill stems in the 90s and didn't manage to lose anything...ever...

keezx

Manc33 wrote:

The truth is, for the amount that bike got used, it will still have a lot of life left in the headset thats on it, I just don't like it because of the little bung thing you can lose off the end of the quill stem.

In 30 years riding with quill stems NEVER one came loose....
Quill stems have disadvantages as explained above, but the wedge is sufficient.

gozzy

Besides which, if the bung did somehow come undone while you were riding it would just fall down and get stopped by your brake bolt. So you just remove the stem, tip the bike upside down get it back and screw it back on.
However you'd know well before it did that because your stem would be loose for a good while before the bung fell off and you'd not be able to steer properly.

If you just happened to unscrew it all the way off while you were adjusting your fork, it's as simple as removing the stem and turning your frame upside down to get it out. Then if it rolls away, keep an eye on where it's rolled to, it won't be far. However since you don't need to undo it all the way to release the stem, this shouldn't be an issue.

In short, you're not going to lose the bung.

onbike 1939

Keezx wrote:

Manc33 wrote:

The truth is, for the amount that bike got used, it will still have a lot of life left in the headset thats on it, I just don't like it because of the little bung thing you can lose off the end of the quill stem.

In 30 years riding with quill stems NEVER one came loose....
Quill stems have disadvantages as explained above, but the wedge is sufficient.

What he doesn't seem to understand is that the wedge is bound to rust itself in place given time, making losing it impossible. 8)