Canyon Euro/GBP madness - suggestions?!

alex222

So under EU law you have to offer the option to to pay in Euro's? Sounds unlikely to me but I'm no lawyer

jibberjim

Bar Shaker wrote:

The vat rate here is the applicable rate in Germany. The prevailing rate in the customer's country does not apply.

Canyon are ripping off UK customers and are breaking EU law by doing so. I'm sorry if some people who have no knowledge of EU law don't agree with that.

No, Canyon must surely do enough sales in the UK that they need to charge UK VAT for delivery to the UK. So the rate would be 20%.

I'm also not sure what law would be being broken? Can you provide details, there could be some marketing rule I guess, but I don't know of any right to supply rules.

I agree it's pretty silly of Canyon not to vary the prices more often along with the exchange rate, or only sell in Euro's.

Dodger747

Bar Shaker wrote:

The vat rate here is the applicable rate in Germany. The prevailing rate in the customer's country does not apply.

Canyon are ripping off UK customers and are breaking EU law by doing so. I'm sorry if some people who have no knowledge of EU law don't agree with that.

If Canyon want to legally rip off UK customers then they need to do so through a UK distributor.

Ok, pick any product on Wiggle, select shipping to the UK and look at total cost. Then change it to Belgium.

Then tell me who doesn't have knowledge of EU law...

Bar Shaker

The ruling is that if you want to charge different prices in different EU countries, you must offer to sell at the lower price to anyone, regardless of where they live in the EU. Otherwise you sell at the same price and refuse business from customers in other EU countries. Vat is always payable in the country of sale, not the country of purchase.

The VW case set the precedent.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/821620.stm

Canyon are falling foul of this by refusing to sell in the UK at their cheaper Euro price.

For those familiar with pan European sales, these rules are well established. Delivery costs can be added to suit where the product needs to go to.

jibberjim

Bar Shaker wrote:

The ruling is that if you want to charge different prices in different EU countries, you must offer to sell at the lower price to anyone, regardless of where they live in the EU. Otherwise you sell at the same price and refuse business from customers in other EU countries. Vat is always payable in the country of sale, not the country of purchase.

The VW case set the precedent.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/821620.stm

In the VW case the point of delivery was the country of sale (ie they were refusing to supply a german getting a car delivered in Italy) so that is not the same case as here, where the point of sale is the UK.

And no VAT is not always payable in the country of sale.

Bar Shaker

The EU fined VAG because VW Italy is the same company as VW Germany. As an ex retailer the implications were spelt out clearly to me when I took legal advice. You may know better.

As a retailer you cannot collect vat at the rate applicable in another EU country. All vat collected is paid to the equivalent of HMRC in your own country so why would you charge more, even if you could? If you charge less, your HMRC will want the difference. As a seller you are only a vat collector, you don't get to keep it. The exception to the rate charged is trans EU sales to vat registered recipients, provided the sale is in line with their business needs. Those are vat free.

Dodger747

From the EU website...

Selling to consumers
If you sell goods and send them to consumers in another EU country, you need to register there and charge VAT at the rate applicable in that country - unless the total value of your sales to that country in the year falls below the limit set by the country (EUR 35 000 or EUR 100 000).

Bar Shaker

That's interesting Dodger. The Distance Selling VAT rules didn't apply back when I was in this line of business and I am happy to be corrected on that point.

With Canyon, the issue is not a VAT one, though. German rates are 19% and UK are 20% but that doesn't explain the £/€ difference on the Canyon website. VAT would account for 120/119= 0.8%.

For the comparison, VAT rates in France are also 20%. An Aeroad CF SLX 9.0 LTD is €6,799 if sold to France. The UK price is £5,899 plus £32 delivery. At today's exchange rate (or if the customer were allowed to pay in Euros) it would be £5,386... over £500 cheaper!

That is ripping off British consumers, just because we are British.

Dodger747

I moved to Belgium in the summer from the UK, and took advantage of the exchange rate by paying in Euros when I paid for my SLX with Super Record and I think the difference was even more than that!

So I take your point that the exchange rate does need adjusting, but I don't think it's anything deliberate on the part of Canyon. Monitoring currency fluctuations must be labour intensive to tie it in to an online store, but maybe they do need to recalculate more often than at present.

BenderRodriguez

Bar Shaker wrote:

VAT rates in France are also 20%. An Aeroad CF SLX 9.0 LTD is €6,799 if sold to France. The UK price is £5,899 plus £32 delivery. At today's exchange rate (or if the customer were allowed to pay in Euros) it would be £5,386... over £500 cheaper!

That is ripping off British consumers, just because we are British.

Thank all those 'Little Englanders' who have ensured that Britain has never adopted the Euro!

It is all well and good Brits moaning about not being able to take full advantage of European monetary union when the UK still has the Pound and seems to do all it can do in order to make itself a marginal member of the EU!

Bar Shaker

Are you being serious????

adamfo

BenderRodriguez wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

VAT rates in France are also 20%. An Aeroad CF SLX 9.0 LTD is €6,799 if sold to France. The UK price is £5,899 plus £32 delivery. At today's exchange rate (or if the customer were allowed to pay in Euros) it would be £5,386... over £500 cheaper!

That is ripping off British consumers, just because we are British.

Thank all those 'Little Englanders' who have ensured that Britain has never adopted the Euro!

It is all well and good Brits moaning about not being able to take full advantage of European monetary union when the UK still has the Pound and seems to do all it can do in order to make itself a marginal member of the EU!

There are lots of EU countries that don't use the Euro. Sweden and Denmark for example.

adamfo

Dodger747 wrote:

So I take your point that the exchange rate does need adjusting, but I don't think it's anything deliberate on the part of Canyon. Monitoring currency fluctuations must be labour intensive to tie it in to an online store, but maybe they do need to recalculate more often than at present.

It can be done automatically. See bike-discount.de as an example. The exchange rates are loaded in favour of the retailer but it's a simple system.

The problem Canyon had was the long lead time on some bikes. This meant smart purchasers kept silent if sterling fell by the time the order actually shipped or asked to pay the lower price if it went up. Payment is only taken just before the bike actually ships.

My own view is they should just charge everyone in euros with annual fixed pricing. They could also provide a link to www.xe.com for those of limited intelligence.

superkenners

People used to complain when the price moved up and down all the time when the FX rate moved. Seems reasonable to charge a fixed price for a good, although it would not be unreasonable to provide the option of paying in Euros. Seems rather OTT to accuse them of breaking the law though.

alex222

Superkenners wrote:

People used to complain when the price moved up and down all the time when the FX rate moved. Seems reasonable to charge a fixed price for a good, although it would not be unreasonable to provide the option of paying in Euros. Seems rather OTT to accuse them of breaking the law though.

Absolutely