Friday offtopic - Ched Evans

Sewinman

Ched Evans has done his time, served his punishment and should be able to return to any walk of life he chooses to pursue. Why are certain people wanting extra-judicial punishment of him? We have no right to dictate what type of job a convicted criminal pursues, unless that career is perhaps related to past crimes (fraud) or to protect the public.

There seems to be a hysteria at play here. The fact that he might make a lot of money is the real issue.....when have footballers ever been 'role-models'.

cookeeemonster

F**k him and f**k sheffield united. Toilet club in my book. They have previous with sex attackers i.e. Marlon King.

I'll say no more and not return to this thread.

Anonymous

See Cake Stop.

Interesting if you read the court papers. Seems she was consenting at the time and regretted it in the morning and wish it hadn't happened.

2 people had sex with her, but the guy who picked her up in the first place wasn't charged, only Ched.
If he wasn't in the public eye I imagine no one would bat an eyelid.

viewtopic.php?f=30005&t=12999886

If he isn't allowed to return to his trade, why not just shoot him? An awful lot cheaper.

veronese68

Sewinman wrote:

.....when have footballers ever been 'role-models'.

Since young kids have wanted to emulate them?

dhope

Agree with OP

Was a mention of it on newsnight, though there was nothing of value said. Included a slightly odd view from one of the panel saying that he'd been convicted by a jury and therefore he had done it and should show remorse. Assuming he believes that he's innocent, and the decision not to allow an appeal is under review then how can anyone expect him to express remorse without jeopardising what may follow the results of a review (i.e. a allowing an appeal).

And as mentioned, the main complaint seems to be that he shouldn't be allowed to earn that much money as a convicted rapist. It's distasteful but how much money should he be able to earn. Can he be a footballer for a worse club or is that out of bounds. Can he aim for any other high paying industry or is it a blanket cap on future earnings. It's a bit too arbitrary to decide this particular bloke for this particular crime shouldn't be allowed to do this particular job.

dhope

Veronese68 wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

.....when have footballers ever been 'role-models'.

Since young kids have wanted to emulate them?

That's not the footballer's fault though, being a role model is down to the people doing the idolising. I expect he wanted to be a footballer and by virtue of being alright at it then people started calling him a role model.
I certainly wouldn't aspire to be John Terry (not comparing him to Ched Evans, just using him as an example of a high profile moron). I'd quite like his bank balance, but that's about it. I'd hope that, if I had kids, I would be able to help them separate his ability from his character.

Sewinman

Re role models. I think it is a bit patronising to children to think that they can not mentally cope with someone being good at sport, but also someone who does wrong.

I do wish we could have banned Jeffrey Archer from writing books.

pblakeney

If he was a plumber who played Sunday league would he be stopped from earning?
Or playing Sunday League?

People need to face the truth of their objections - That a convicted man can go on to be successful.

Does this objection extend to all walks of lives, or purely football?

rick_chasey

He's in a public job, and ultimately his actions has an effect on his ability to do his job. In this instance he's in a sport which ultimately means he's a glorified entertainer. Some people, it turns out, don't like being entertained by a convicted rapist.

Tough sh!t. Just because you've done everything the penal code says, doesn't mean you're immune from wider criticism from joe public.

One isn't a substitute for an other.

Should have thought of that before he got all rapey.

vermin

dhope wrote:

Can he be a footballer for a worse club

You lost me here - example?

It's all just a convenient feminism awareness excercise though isn't it? Which is no bad thing.
He has maintained that he is innocent. The evidence was not beyond doubt, but perhaps his opinion is based on an inappropriate value set. My impression is that he's a nasty piece of work but, even if he is guilty, no-one with an ounce of sanity can expect him to hang himself by admitting guilt or remorse.

I understand that the FA had a word with SUFC, so the responsibility lies with the FA. If the public doesn't like the actions of SUFC, then they should excercise their right to protest; fans can stay away, and rival fans can have their say. Perhaps if that were to happen, it might help to send a good message to the kids.

bompington

Question re employment law - is it even legal to discriminate against someone who has done their time? As far as I know footballers aren't on the list of exemption from the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act.
Of course people don't have to like you, but they can't deny you your basic legal rights.

What I find a bit odd about this whole affair is that the kind of people who would normally be contemptuous of the flog 'em & hang 'em brigade have clearly decided that rape is the one unrehabilitatable crime. Double standards I think.

msmancunia

I guess he does have a right to go out and earn a living now he's done his time but I would feel very uncomfortable if Sheffield United took him back on.

If I'm presuming correctly, he's a convicted sex offender and would have had to sign the sex offenders register? We have to do extended CRB checks to every single one of our volunteers, because they work with children and vulnerable adults. The staff who work within community football at SUFC will have had to do the same. Taking him on is making that checking system a laughing stock. And the people who are pushing for him to be taken back are probably the same sort of people who pursue others who have (sometimes wrongly) been identified as a sex offender and decided to dole out some of their own mob justice.

veronese68

Rick Chasey wrote:

He's in a public job, and ultimately his actions has an effect on his ability to do his job. In this instance he's in a sport which ultimately means he's a glorified entertainer. Some people, it turns out, don't like being entertained by a convicted rapist.

Tough sh!t. Just because you've done everything the penal code says, doesn't mean you're immune from wider criticism from joe public.

One isn't a substitute for an other.

Should have thought of that before he got all rapey.

I think this is the issue. He is being viewed in the same way a TV presenter is being viewed. A TV presenter convicted of rape would not appear as a presenter again, their only future TV appearances would probably be on the news.
Like it or not footballers are revered by some people, lord only knows why.

surrey_commuter

For Sheff Utd it is a commercial decision... ie how much revenue will they lose if the rehire him. In reality if he was a better player he would get rehired. Therefore he will have to drop down the leagues to a level where he is an outstanding player and somebody will take the risk and hire him.

dhope

msmancunia wrote:

If I'm presuming correctly, he's a convicted sex offender and would have had to sign the sex offenders register? We have to do extended CRB checks to every single one of our volunteers, because they work with children and vulnerable adults.

There was some mention of this yesterday. That he'd not be allowed to work with children for example. I'm sure the club could include the requirement to mentor younger players as part of a senior player's contract and thus make it impossible for them to rehire a registered sex offender...

Coach H

Veronese68 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

He's in a public job, and ultimately his actions has an effect on his ability to do his job. In this instance he's in a sport which ultimately means he's a glorified entertainer. Some people, it turns out, don't like being entertained by a convicted rapist.

Tough sh!t. Just because you've done everything the penal code says, doesn't mean you're immune from wider criticism from joe public.

One isn't a substitute for an other.

Should have thought of that before he got all rapey.

I think this is the issue. He is being viewed in the same way a TV presenter is being viewed. A TV presenter convicted of rape would not appear as a presenter again, their only future TV appearances would probably be on the news.
Like it or not footballers are revered by some people, lord only knows why.

Exactly

Whilst I agree in principle with the 'he's served his punishment' lobby, how about this
Gary Glitter serves any and all punishment for offences committed and then is paid to appear on Never Mind the Buzzcocks. Everyone happy with that scenario?

Ched Evans is trying to return to a job in the public eye and some members of the public don't seem to want to see him. Sounds like freedom of choice for the general public rather than discrimination of Ched Evans to me.

Sewinman

It is a bit more than people voting with their feet though. The Welsh first minister said that he "can not go back to football". If a senior politician is saying that it makes it difficult for any club to hire him, and effectively prevents him from carrying out his trade.

MrSweary

Personally I have little sympathy for him. I have more sympathy with ex-offenders from less illustrious backgrounds who are unable to escape their past. He got paid a lot of money and was in a privileged position and abused it because he couldn't keep it in his pants.

Its a hard world and thems the breaks. If I were going to get upset about injustice then he's pretty far down the ladder.

Sadly, from a lot of his defenders (not suggesting anyone on here) who I have discussed it with there is an element of 'she knew what she was doing' rape excusing in their arguments. Brings to mind the 'she was wearing a short skirt and so was asking for it' type sentiments which you'd hope we'd have left behind in the 70s. Not all of them have been men either.

That all said some friends in the legal profession have suggested that the fast tracking of the case review suggests the conviction is considered dodgy. This one has some way to run I think.

EKE_38BPM

When I was a student I was having a VERY drunken night in the Student Union bar and a VERY drunken female girl approached me and she wanted to "get it on".
This was not a romantic seduction.

We were doing what drunken couples in clubs and bars do when her friends came over to us to tell me she was drunk, didn't know what she was doing and I was taking advantage of her. I replied that I was as drunk as she was, even if she didn't know what she was doing she was very good at it and she approached me.
I made no play towards her, she made all the running.
She told her friends to mind their own business, grabbed my hand, led me back to her place and the rest of the story is censored.

Suppose if, in the morning, she changed her mind, regretted our night of drunken passion and cried rape.
Question 1:Would I be a rapist?
Question 2: Should I be able to do the job I do now?

Sportsmen and allegations of rape are not uncommon.
Is it a problem with the mindset of the sportsmen e.g. Ched Evans, Kobe Bryant, Mike Tyson etc etc etc?
Is it a problem with the alleged victims looking to get something e.g. fame and fortune?
Is it a problem with society raising blokes with above average hand-eye coordination, reflexes and fitness to "role model" status when all they wanted to do is kick, throw or punch but a lifetime of being surrounded by enablers lead to them having a sense of entitlement, even with regard to a woman's body?

If Ched is innocent, I feel very sorry for him. If he's guilty then he should show remorse but he should be allowed to do his job with the relevant sex offender restrictions, just as if he was, for example, a carpenter.

rick_chasey

He's not a carpenter though, is he? He's a footballer.

His job puts him in the public eye, and the public has opinions on people with certain convictions and whether they, as the viewing public, are comfortable with viewing him.

Let me put it this way, if, as unlikely as it is, Sheffield United lost 1/2 of all ticket sales because fans objected to Ched playing for Sheffield, he'd be gone in a giffy.

veronese68

dhope wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

.....when have footballers ever been 'role-models'.

Since young kids have wanted to emulate them?

That's not the footballer's fault though, being a role model is down to the people doing the idolising. I expect he wanted to be a footballer and by virtue of being alright at it then people started calling him a role model.
I certainly wouldn't aspire to be John Terry (not comparing him to Ched Evans, just using him as an example of a high profile moron). I'd quite like his bank balance, but that's about it. I'd hope that, if I had kids, I would be able to help them separate his ability from his character.

Completely agree, just answering the question. They are role models to some, wether they like it or not.

EKE_38BPM

Rick Chasey wrote:

He's not a carpenter though, is he? He's a footballer.

His job puts him in the public eye, and the public has opinions on people with certain convictions and whether they, as the viewing public, are comfortable with viewing him.

Let me put it this way, if, as unlikely as it is, Sheffield United lost 1/2 of all ticket sales because fans objected to Ched playing for Sheffield, he'd be gone in a giffy.

Agreed, just as if the hypothetical carpenter had to make his conviction known to his employer. He'd be allowed to do his job but it might be difficult to actually do it.

EKE_38BPM

I'm enjoying this. We haven't had a good Friday topic for ages.

rick_chasey

Let's take another hypothetical example, that isn't all that hypothetical.

A trader gets done for insider trading, so quits trading. He'll never be allowed to trade or give investment advice professionally again.

He can however, work for my recruitment firm.

He's probably great for the job. He knows the market, knows the language traders speak blah blah. Cheap to hire 'cos he's on the sreet blah blah.

Would I hire him? Hell no. I don't want someone with that reputation representing my company.

MrSweary

EKE_38BPM wrote:

When I was a student I was having a VERY drunken night in the Student Union bar and a VERY drunken female girl approached me and she wanted to "get it on".
This was not a romantic seduction.

We were doing what drunken couples in clubs and bars do when her friends came over to us to tell me she was drunk, didn't know what she was doing and I was taking advantage of her. I replied that I was as drunk as she was, even if she didn't know what she was doing she was very good at it and she approached me.
I made no play towards her, she made all the running.
She told her friends to mind their own business, grabbed my hand, led me back to her place and the rest of the story is censored.

Suppose if, in the morning, she changed her mind, regretted our night of drunken passion and cried rape.
Question 1:Would I be a rapist?
Question 2: Should I be able to do the job I do now?

It is a difficult situation you describe but not the one we are discussing. Would you be a rapist? Up to a jury to decide. If however you were sober enough to make the decision that she was unable to know what she was doing (and therefore consent) then the chances are you'd meet the definition. I should imagine many of us have been in a similar position and acted in exactly the same way. Proving any of this in court is another matter. Sadly this has been the to the benefit of rapists for a long long time.

Sportsmen and allegations of rape are not uncommon.
Is it a problem with the mindset of the sportsmen e.g. Ched Evans, Kobe Bryant, Mike Tyson etc etc etc?
Is it a problem with the alleged victims looking to get something e.g. fame and fortune?
Is it a problem with society raising blokes with above average hand-eye coordination, reflexes and fitness to "role model" status when all they wanted to do is kick, throw or punch but a lifetime of being surrounded by enablers lead to them having a sense of entitlement, even with regard to a woman's body?

No doubt these are all factors. At the end of the day though the individual has a choice which overrides any mindsets or societal influences.

surrey_commuter

I have only followed this from a distance so have no real opinion but he does seem adamant that he is innocent, this could be because he sees himself as having not done anything wrong. I also thought you were not eligible for early release unless you showed remorse which is impossible to do if you still maintain your innocence.

veronese68

EKE_38BPM wrote:

I'm enjoying this. We haven't had a good Friday topic for ages.

Do you miss DDD?

anonymousblackfg

Rick Chasey wrote:

He's not a carpenter though, is he? He's a footballer.

How are you suprised by footballers actions, if you give guys with IQ's of 70 £50k a week and plenty of free time they're going to behave like d1cks all day long.

rick_chasey

anonymousblackfg wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

He's not a carpenter though, is he? He's a footballer.

How are you suprised by footballers actions, if you give guys with IQ's of 70 £50k a week and plenty of free time they're going to behave like d1cks all day long.

Where do I say I'm surprised?

ugo.santalucia

In the absence of legislation that prevents a footballer with a conviction for rape to continue being a footballer it all sounds profoundly unfair if not illegal.

bigmat

If we accept he did the crime (and he's been found guilty by a jury) then I struggle to have any sympathy. It's a job where you are in the public eye, an entertainment industry, an element of being a role model etc etc. Market forces dictate (I hope) that he is now too toxic to take on - the bad press / bad feeling from supporters would outweigh any sporting benefit he might bring.

Hell, I get annoyed whenever I hear Michael Jackson songs and he wasn't even found guilty. This low life can do one as far as I'm concerned.

Oh, and Eke - that situation sounds very dodgy. Girl too drunk to give consent, friends highlighted this, your only excuse being that you were also drunk. I'm sure you'd get off on evidential grounds, but still... good job she didn't change her mind the morning after!