RTA, Court, Witness, Money, Opinions?

dhope

A month ago I saw a minor RTA. Driver turning right onto a main road bumped into a cyclist stationary waiting to turn right into the side road the driver was coming out of. Everyone was fine. Driver was a dick and refused to give details at the time. Got the plates and photos etc, and I filled out a witness statement for the police. All fine and dandy.

On the witness statement it asks for when you're available to go to court. I'm self employed and put down weekends. Got a letter through today saying courts aren't open weekends (which, to be fair, I knew) and if there's no witness available to go to court then the best they can do is issue a warning. The driver seemingly hasn't seen sense and is still adamant the cyclist had positioned himself in the middle of the road (he had - he was turning right).

I don't really want to lose income (which I would given the £43 I could claim as a witness). Nobody was hurt. Driver is still a dick though and could do with going on one of the 'how not to drive like a tool' courses.

Thoughts?

(probably more of a Friday thread I know)

And a random thought - can I appear as a witness and then pursue the driver through small claims to recoup any lost earnings if he's guilty?



Discus(s)

meanredspider

Is your witness statement not good enough? I would seem harsh to lose money but I guess there is your civic duty.

bigmat

Part and parcel of your self employed status. You probably earn more to compensate for this kind of event? (that's presumption - feel free to ignore)

I guess it's a question of whether you consider giving evidence justifies the expense. Main issue for me would probably be the victim's stance - if they don't seem that bothered then I'd be less inclined to go to the trouble. Not sure why you would have to actually give evidence in court for this - would have thought it could be dealt with in writing, but the police probably can't be bothered unless they know they have someone available if required.

Can't see how you could claim against the driver for your loss of income - pure economic loss and all that.

dhope

meanredspider wrote:

Is your witness statement not good enough? I would seem harsh to lose money but I guess there is your civic duty.

Not sure exactly how it works. Seems it's good enough for them to suggest he goes on a driving course. I guess he's either disputed my account or just maintains the cyclist was poorly positioned.
Though I'm not sure what extra I would say outside of what was on the statement.

Initialised

Next time it could be you needing a witness...

cookeeemonster

I suppose it depends on how much the loss of income would affect you?

It does make my blood boil when I read about incidents like this so I'd like to think I'd go to court and get the funker prosecuted.

anonymousblackfg

If he gets a warning there is no blemish on his licence so he probably doesn't tell his insurance and he doesn't get screwed on his premium to help teach him a lesson.

Looking in my side drawer at work I have £4 in loose change your welcome to for compensation, go start a kickstarter campaign...

surrey_commuter

Was in a similar situation and they just want you to confirm what was in your statement. The rozzer i was dealing with was astounded i turned up and kept thanking me.

I did not have to be there all day as they were quite specific about when I would be needed.

vermin

Oral evidence is more credible than written - hearsay rules.

Witnesses may receive compensation for travelling expenses, refreshments, financial loss (e.g. loss of earnings) and other expenses incurred (e.g. childcare), subject to applicable limits (including travel by bicycle at 20p per mile).
Maximum daily amounts do apply to loss of earnings and other financial losses - you're doing well to get £43!.

katiebob

Initialised wrote:

Next time it could be you needing a witness...

This

Koncordski

I understand your money worry but I think we all have an obligation to help as much as we can, if I was the other cyclist I'd really appreciate you turning up.

EKE_38BPM

Koncordski wrote:

I understand your money worry but I think we all have an obligation to help as much as we can, if I was the other cyclist I'd really appreciate you turning up.

This.

Do it willingly, but claim all you're entitled to.

MrSweary

Whip round?

But yeah, what initialised said.

dhope

BigMat wrote:

Part and parcel of your self employed status. You probably earn more to compensate for this kind of event? (that's presumption - feel free to ignore)

This is true, my day rate is likely higher than an employees daily salary. I guess this sort of event should be lumped in with unforeseen illnesses etc.

BigMat wrote:

Can't see how you could claim against the driver for your loss of income - pure economic loss and all that.

I'm not sure either. Was more a pondering - if, as the result of the driver being a stubborn muppet and refusing to attend a course, I end up taking a hit, can it be treated similarly to the cyclists rear wheel taking a hit. I know you can't directly equate earnings lost for work I wasn't able to do to a rear wheel being replaced, but they're both as a result of the same negligent act, either directly or indirectly. Anyway, more a pondering than stamping my feet and demanding recompense.

BigMat wrote:

Main issue for me would probably be the victim's stance - if they don't seem that bothered then I'd be less inclined to go to the trouble.

Had been thinking of dropping the guy an email to see if he's got things paid for and if he was aware of the possible court date etc. I *wouldn't* go playing a guilt trip on him and mentioning the cash side though.

Lots of people wrote:

Next time it could be you needing a witness...

Yeah. This :?

veronese68

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Koncordski wrote:

I understand your money worry but I think we all have an obligation to help as much as we can, if I was the other cyclist I'd really appreciate you turning up.

This.

Do it willingly, but claim all you're entitled to.

This. I'll buy you a pint if it helps, assuming we manage to coordinate a drink some time.

dhope

Veronese68 wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Koncordski wrote:

I understand your money worry but I think we all have an obligation to help as much as we can, if I was the other cyclist I'd really appreciate you turning up.

This.

Do it willingly, but claim all you're entitled to.

This. I'll buy you a pint if it helps, assuming we manage to coordinate a drink some time.

I'm certainly not looking for a Bikeradar whip round to top up the courts expenses. The mortgage will not immediately be in danger if I miss a day's pay.

Last good deed I did for a cyclist (cheap frame to Coroidan) and the karma fairy arranged to have my bike nicked 2 days later. So I'm a bit concerned if I go to court then I'll get beaten to a pulp by a mob of angry drivers on the way out :shock: (joking of course)

pblakeney

dhope wrote:

Last good deed I did for a cyclist (cheap frame to Coroidan) and the karma fairy arranged to have my bike nicked 2 days later. So I'm a bit concerned if I go to court then I'll get beaten to a pulp by a mob of angry drivers on the way out :shock: (joking of course)

Just imagine how bad your luck could have been without the good karma.

veronese68

dhope wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

This. I'll buy you a pint if it helps, assuming we manage to coordinate a drink some time.

I'm certainly not looking for a Bikeradar whip round to top up the courts expenses. The mortgage will not immediately be in danger if I miss a day's pay.

I'm just using any excuse to get people interested in going for a pint.

davis

Veronese68 wrote:

dhope wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

This. I'll buy you a pint if it helps, assuming we manage to coordinate a drink some time.

I'm certainly not looking for a Bikeradar whip round to top up the courts expenses. The mortgage will not immediately be in danger if I miss a day's pay.

I'm just using any excuse to get people interested in going for a pint.

Doom Bar, thanks.

thepeopleschamp

For me it would depend entirely on how much of a dick the driver was at the scene.
I'd give up a weeks pay if he was enough of w@nker.

ugo.santalucia

Ask yourself what would Bruce Willis do in your place, then ask your self what would Jean Claude Van Damme do... if they agree, it's pretty clear what you have to do

merkin

I had an accident over twenty years ago now. The main witness left me his details and went on his way but in the confusion I had no idea where they were. The driver (and attending policeman) both accused me of being in the wrong. When I got out of hospital a week later I found the guys details in my coat pocket and he fully agreed with my version of events and attended court to give evidence against the driver who had driven straight through red lights. The driver was found guilty, the policeman hopefully learnt not to simply assume that all old people tell the truth and youngsters all lie, and I am still very grateful two decades later to the kindness of a stranger.
I wouldn't bother if I were you.
Only joking, of course you should. Do you have to lose a whole day or can you salvage something from it?

bobinski

dhope wrote:

On the witness statement it asks for when you're available to go to court. I'm self employed and put down weekends. Got a letter through today saying courts aren't open weekends (which, to be fair, I knew) and if there's no witness available to go to court then the best they can do is issue a warning. The driver seemingly hasn't seen sense and is still adamant the cyclist had positioned himself in the middle of the road (he had - he was turning right

Discus(s)

I am a bit confused by this. If you don't attend, and you will because it is your civic duty , then it will be the stationary cyclist and the driver attending and giving evidence. Clearly your evidence corroborates the cyclists account and is helpful. But, if his defence is that he accepts where the cyclist was when hit but that in his view the cyclist was in the wrong place then your statement can be read into evidence. This is simply because what you say is not in dispute. You could enquire of the police and court to see if the driver will allow your statement to be read. But I would urge you to go for all the reasons given by others and not least because your assessment of the appropriateness of the cyclists positioning may carry some weight. Almost the equivalent of an SCR Expert witness.

dhope

Reply from the police when I asked whether I had to be there or if it had to be a full day

Hi dhope

It is possible that you may not be called to court but if they do want you to attend you would have to go and that may possibly be all day.

Let me know what the third party thinks as its a damage only incident it may be worth just letting the insurance company deal with the matter.

Kind Regards
...

dhope

bobinski wrote:

Almost the equivalent of an SCR Expert witness.

See if they could accept that I'm an expert witness then I can claim more expenses and all is not lost

First.Aspect

I think you should go. It might settle on the day simply because you are there ready to give evidence, and you'll get to go home early.

rick_chasey

FWIW I had the same.

I had a driver try & run me over before getting out kicking me to the ground & on the floor.

Chap who was a self employed driving instructor helped get the guy off me.

He had the same excuse - he wouldn't be witness as he couldn't afford to go to court.

Chap who did it got off, as it was my word against his.

dhope

Rick Chasey wrote:

FWIW I had the same.

I had a driver try & run me over before getting out kicking me to the ground & on the floor.

Chap who was a self employed driving instructor helped get the guy off me.

He had the same excuse - he wouldn't be witness as he couldn't afford to go to court.

Chap who did it got off, as it was my word against his.

Yours sounds more serious than this. This one the bloke was belligerent a bit aggro after the event, but not particularly intimidating. That said, he did refuse to give any details.
If I'd had to intervene to stop someone getting a kicking then there's no doubt I'd be going. This is a knock at a few mph, at most a kink in the back wheel and a few angry words. I've emailed the cyclist involved as he hadn't heard anything from the police or insurance yet and he's said "I really hope that this is not going any further - I'm mostly interested in getting the guy's insurance details and getting this settled."
So I'm not even sure if he's found out the drivers name yet...

Anywho, all this civic duty malarkey seems to be leading toward me grumbling about it but eventually doing The Right Thing™

tlw1

Veronese68 wrote:

dhope wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

This. I'll buy you a pint if it helps, assuming we manage to coordinate a drink some time.

I'm certainly not looking for a Bikeradar whip round to top up the courts expenses. The mortgage will not immediately be in danger if I miss a day's pay.

I'm just using any excuse to get people interested in going for a pint.

Do you need an excuse

andrewc3142

What goes round comes round.

The Rookie

The witness statement will only be good enough if the driver's defence doesn't contest it, if it does it is either disregarded, it is only correct the defence have a chance to contest (cross examine) the evidence.

If the driver is a dick he can't admit he was wrong, it is likely only some points on his licence will get him to see sense, as such and as a cyclist I would be willing to give up half to a days pay to do the RIGHT THING.

I too have been a para...sorry contractor and know what it's like, that said if you have an understanding direct line manager it was often possible to make up hours to my normal weekly number with a few extra that week and a few extra the following week 'pre-dated' as he wanted the hours worked and I wanted to get paid for them!