Cookson said...

ugo.santalucia

That he welcomes initiatives to charge the public to view races... such as ticketing the Alpe d'Huez and such...

In principle I don't have a huge problem with the Tour charging 3-5 Euro to go up the Alpe, but it is the first step to a mass commercialisation... so that you need to book one year in advance and buy into an ASO branded package holiday to get to see a bit of action, well, that would be the end of cycling as we know it and not something I'd look forward to...

frenchfighter

Ticketing is an unacceptable proposition.

Pross

I can see some benefit to it such as controlling numbers in the most popular areas but ultimately the free show is what makes cycling such a unique sport and the crowds on iconic mountain stages are what creates the spectacle. It also seems odd to charge people to stand on a public road. I'm not sure it would be good for race organisers either as it might put of towns from bidding to have the race visit them if the numbers of people the event attracts are reduced.

inseine

I guess it would depend on what they spent the money on. I'd be happy to see it shared around the teams.

specialgueststar

inseine wrote:

I guess it would depend on what they spent the money on. I'd be happy to see it shared around the teams.

better to put it in grass roots racing??

slowbike

One of the things I like about the tours is that you can make your mind up almost at the last minute about if/where you're going to go to watch.
I've seen the TdF twice now - in France - neither time did we know where we would see it, both times the road was packed - not just adults, but kids too - the first time wasn't even a climb, just a rolling bit of road before 1/2way. The second time was near the top of the first cat1 climb of the race - wow ... the noise! There were hundreds of people - if not a thousand - walking miles to get back to their cars.

Not sure what they're trying to achieve by charging - if it's to limit numbers then I can understand the result, but it depends how it's handled. Ticketing key areas is likely to lead to over crowding in other areas. Ticketing the whole lot would be impractical and would impact massively on the reach of the race. I, for one, wouldn't be purchasing a ticket a year in advance - I have no idea what we'll be doing or where we'll be for the race atm and it's only 8 months away.

By all means try and exercise some crowd control - but not by introducing ticketing ...

ocdupalais

SpecialGuestStar wrote:

inseine wrote:

I guess it would depend on what they spent the money on. I'd be happy to see it shared around the teams.

better to put it in grass roots racing??

Much like the Premiership has resulted in the amazing England football team we have today?

Excuse my cynicism, but this concept (charging cycling fans to watch) is rooted with the dark forces at play within the sport and is at odds with what people like Prudhomme express when talking about the traditions in cycling, their heritage and what they mean in the face of the rampant commercialism that afflicts all sports after a while.

If you give a toss about controlling crowds at GT stages, employ more police/marshals, etc; don't try to tax passion.

frenchfighter

No French, Italian or Spaniard would pay. They might get away with it in the UK though.

dish_dash

inseine wrote:

I'd be happy to see it shared around the teams.

Depends how this distribution happens? And I doubt the formula will be equitable or fair... I'm very sceptical of efforts to make cycling more like other professional sports. But recognise that this also means you take some of the more haphazard aspects of cycling (sponsors come and go, no longevity in teams etc. etc.)

brettjmcc

inseine wrote:

I guess it would depend on what they spent the money on. I'd be happy to see it shared around the teams.

which in turn would just drive up wage bills. As others have said, maybe better to put into cycling development, or even developing women's cycling more etc etc

blazing_saddles

Beyond the odd MTF or classics finish, who is going to cough up to watch a peloton fly by in the average race or road stage?
Answer: Not many, even if it were practical, which it ain't.
So how to make charging viable?
Answer: We'll get a shed load of criterium races, stages and finishes appearing on the calendar.

Goodie. :roll:

salsiccia1

No. Just no.

RichN95.

brettjmcc wrote:

inseine wrote:

I guess it would depend on what they spent the money on. I'd be happy to see it shared around the teams.

which in turn would just drive up wage bills. As others have said, maybe better to put into cycling development, or even developing women's cycling more etc etc

An extra million or two to each World Team won't drive up wages much. Certainly not as much as billionaire investors and big budget sponsors. However, it would offer a little more stability to the smaller teams which are in constant search of sponsors like Europcar and Belkin and stop them going the way of Euskaltel and Vacansoleil.

Pross

It won't happen, I don't see who would benefit from it.

jimmythecuckoo

It sounds to me like rather than spending money on better roadside stewardship they are going to keep numbers down and reduce that need by charging.

Stupid.

ugo.santalucia

It will happen, I fear...

as for grassroot cycling... we all know this is codshxt right? Look at football... how much of the huge revenues goes into grassroot football? The wealthiest league is the one that develops the fewest young players... If there is money to be made, it will go in the pockets of the few... I have never seen more money in sport making it more democratic and equal... less equal, yes...

Besides... why does PRO cycling need more money? To become a farse like the National Leagues and the Champions League?

inseine

ugo.santalucia wrote:

It will happen, I fear...

as for grassroot cycling... we all know this is codshxt right? Look at football... how much of the huge revenues goes into grassroot football? The wealthiest league is the one that develops the fewest young players... If there is money to be made, it will go in the pockets of the few... I have never seen more money in sport making it more democratic and equal... less equal, yes...

Besides... why does PRO cycling need more money? To become a farse like the National Leagues and the Champions League?

It would be nice to think there was a happy medium between the 'farce' that is football and the possibly unsustainable model that is cycling. Lets face it, there is hardly any money in the sport. Take out the rich enthusiasts and governments, how many people put money in cycling in order to see a return?
I realize that charging a fiver to watch on the alpe isn't going to fix it;

RichN95.

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

It sounds to me like rather than spending money on better roadside stewardship they are going to keep numbers down and reduce that need by charging.

Stupid.

It's not stupid from a business point of view.

ugo.santalucia

inseine wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

It will happen, I fear...

as for grassroot cycling... we all know this is codshxt right? Look at football... how much of the huge revenues goes into grassroot football? The wealthiest league is the one that develops the fewest young players... If there is money to be made, it will go in the pockets of the few... I have never seen more money in sport making it more democratic and equal... less equal, yes...

Besides... why does PRO cycling need more money? To become a farse like the National Leagues and the Champions League?

It would be nice to think there was a happy medium between the 'farce' that is football and the possibly unsustainable model that is cycling. Lets face it, there is hardly any money in the sport. Take out the rich enthusiasts and governments, how many people put money in cycling in order to see a return?
I realize that charging a fiver to watch on the alpe isn't going to fix it;

I disagree... there is enough money in the sport to pay 2 million or more a year for a top contender... that's 5 times less than football that we all agree is too rich

RichN95.

Maybe they could start by just charging people to park their vehicles on a mountain.

tailwindhome

Ticketing doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

It may help with crowd control issues and pay for barriers etc.

Pross

How do you do it and who would get the money? For example, in the UK the only way you could stop pedestrians standing on the side of a public road would be if you had that road fully closed so other than a couple of full closures at finishes like at The Tumble this year there would be no legal way to prevent someone being there and if you did charge who would get it the organiser or the race or the Council? OK, it would be different in other countries but I think the argument of who would get the money would still apply. Can you imagine a Frenchman putting up with being told he has to pay to stand at the side of a road? There would soon be a convoy of tractors towing loads of manure to Aigle ready to dump their loads outside UCI Towers in protest.

RichN95.

Pross wrote:

How do you do it and who would get the money? For example, in the UK the only way you could stop pedestrians standing on the side of a public road would be if you had that road fully closed so other than a couple of full closures at finishes like at The Tumble this year there would be no legal way to prevent someone being there and if you did charge who would get it the organiser or the race or the Council? OK, it would be different in other countries but I think the argument of who would get the money would still apply. Can you imagine a Frenchman putting up with being told he has to pay to stand at the side of a road? There would soon be a convoy of tractors towing loads of manure to Aigle ready to dump their loads outside UCI Towers in protest.

I don't think anyone is suggesting charging for the entire route or even large sections of it. Just the key points, such as the final climb of a stage.

DeVlaeminck

I doubt it would work unless they are going to engineer finishes to suit charging. The practicalities of charging even say on Alpe D'Huez would be pretty difficult to work out - I mean how do they stop tens of thousands just walking up or down the mountain - it's not like the only way up is that one road. The other thing is thenTour is a massive inconvenience as well as being a free show - if you take away the free show it I suspect locals may start to resent the massive imposition.

RichN95.

DeVlaeminck wrote:

I doubt it would work unless they are going to engineer finishes to suit charging. The practicalities of charging even say on Alpe D'Huez would be pretty difficult to work out - I mean how do they stop tens of thousands just walking up or down the mountain - it's not like the only way up is that one road. The other thing is thenTour is a massive inconvenience as well as being a free show - if you take away the free show it I suspect locals may start to resent the massive imposition.

Then give the locals a free ticket (or like I suggested, just charge for parking). The people on Alpe d'Huez aren't locals anyway - they've travelled there and spent a fair amount doing so, so an extra E5 per head (or E25 for a car E40 for a camper van) won't deter them.

ugo.santalucia

My fear is that if the idea catches on, then the price will go up following offer-demand... which means in 10 years you might have to pay 100 quid for the privilege... just in the same way as you can't really afford to go and see a Champions League match that in the 1980s was cheap as chips.... they improve the facilities to make sure they are attractive to the wealthy and they charge accordingly.

mrushton

We'll have Ticketmaster charging a booking fee and 'meet and greet' VIP packages for the 'fans' Once charging starts there is no way back. Koppenberg/Alpe d'Huez/Arenberg/Stelvio - is there going to be a turnstile on public roads?

cougie

Cant really see that its practical for something like the Alpe.

They do charge for the post tour criteriums I think ? Not that I've been to any - but that seems to be a simpler idea and a smaller area to fence off ?

andyrr

I'd think that it is quite feasible for organisers to have a serious attempt at this : I'd see the way that world championship car rallies went from pretty much a free-for-all from a spectator point of view to almost wholesale charging. I know that this is not a like-for-like in as much as in the UK rallies take place on private land whereas bike races are on public roads but I think it bears comparison.
Way back (lat 80's onwards) I followed guys like Colin McRae around the country on the UK World Championship rally (AKA RAC Rally, Lombard RAC etc etc). I, and sometimes a mate, drove to a location near a forest stage, park up, kip in the car if the stage was 1st thing the next day, then trudge a mile or 2 to watch the cars, then head back to the car, drive miles away to see them again. We sometimes parked on a farmer's field and had to pay £5 or so but often, even about 20 years ago, were only paying for petrol and food etc, minimal costs associated with the actual spectating.
Then the FIA etc started screwing around with the sport, made WRC rallies centre around 1 or 2 locations instead of hopping across the country, and they offered spectating 'packages' that seemed to become almost obligatory.

If some of the biggest cycling events/locations could pull in a few 10's of thousand paying spectators, even if much reduced from the numbers that would attend if no charge was levied then that would seem pretty attractive ?
Many people pay a fair premium to companies to be assured of an entry to L'Etape over and above the actual entry fee so many would still pay to spend the day on L'Alpe etc ?

RichN95.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

My fear is that if the idea catches on, then the price will go up following offer-demand... which means in 10 years you might have to pay 100 quid for the privilege... just in the same way as you can't really afford to go and see a Champions League match that in the 1980s was cheap as chips.... they improve the facilities to make sure they are attractive to the wealthy and they charge accordingly.

The price will only go up as long as people are willing to pay. Basic economics will dictate the price. And like football, the better the experience, the more they will be willing to pay.

Sport is a business. Some of you need to stop thinking that it watching for free is some sort fundamental human right.

ugo.santalucia

RichN95 wrote:

Sport is a business. Some of you need to stop thinking that it watching for free is some sort fundamental human right.

And now you have to explain why we have been watching cycling for free for a century but in 2014 we have to start paying... and it's not capitalism, because that's not a new idea... there was capitalism and money in sport 50 years ago

Why this idea that it is inevitable? it isn't... I don't buy into this bullshxt that there is no money... if there was no money there would be no PRO circuit, which instead needs to be curbed, because there are too many events...

We don't have to believe ALL the bullsxit... maybe some, not ALL! :evil: