£500ish handbuilt wheels?

jswba

OK, I've got a new frame being built and am looking at some handbuilts to go with it. Any advice?

I'm about 80kg on a good day, 85 when porky (6'2" if you're interested) and am a recreational rather than racing rider. Want these wheels as a pair of nice summer wheels. I've got a pair of handbuilts with Hope hubs and Open Pros, and while they do for my winter bike, I'm wondering whether I could get something with a bit more bollocks (and a few less grams!) for the summer? I had a beautiful pair of Dura Aces a while back but when the hub failed I didn't fancy going down that route again. Similarly, from reading through Ugo's posts here and his blog (thanks Ugo) it seems that Ksyriums (which are stocked by the LBS) mightn't be the way to go if I'm wanting something with a bit of durability.

Any thoughts gratefully received folks!

ugo.santalucia

That is my perspective... plenty of people had a long service life out of a set of Elite S. They are actually pretty reliable, but increasingly subject to rim cracking.
On the other hand you've got 2 years warranty if you buy from a reputable shop... so up to you.

500 pounds is a solid budget for a pair of hand builts... you can get Dura Ace hubs or similar quality, which of course is better than what Mavic fits on their wheels

jswba

Cheers Ugo. I'm guessing that Shimano have solved that problem with the hubs which meant that they froze up after a while. Do you happen to know which hubs are of similar quality to DAs?

ugo.santalucia

jswba wrote:

Cheers Ugo. I'm guessing that Shimano have solved that problem with the hubs which meant that they froze up after a while.

don't know what you are talking about

jswba wrote:

Do you happen to know which hubs are of similar cost to DAs?

The Italian made PMP are similarly priced and are nothing short of awesome. White industries are also in that price range

jswba

ugo.santalucia wrote:

jswba wrote:

Cheers Ugo. I'm guessing that Shimano have solved that problem with the hubs which meant that they froze up after a while.

don't know what you are talking about

Oh, the mechanic I spoke to said it wasn't uncommon. Basically, my hub just stopped moving entirely after a cold snap last year. Tried everything bar smashing it with a hammer and eventually took it in to find out it was knackered (well, that, or the shop's wheelbuilder didn't fancy the repair). Mind you, it had done God knows how many miles by then (it was about ten years old) so I shouldn't complain.

Thanks for the tips. Really appreciate it.

ugo.santalucia

jswba wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

jswba wrote:

Cheers Ugo. I'm guessing that Shimano have solved that problem with the hubs which meant that they froze up after a while.

don't know what you are talking about

Oh, the mechanic I spoke to said it wasn't uncommon. Basically, my hub just stopped moving entirely after a cold snap last year. Tried everything bar smashing it with a hammer and eventually took it in to find out it was knackered (well, that, or the shop's wheelbuilder didn't fancy the repair). Mind you, it had done God knows how many miles by then (it was about ten years old) so I shouldn't complain.

Thanks for the tips. Really appreciate it.

If you leave wet bearings in the shed for a winter they all freeze solid... best not to...
If you leave your car in the driveway all winter without using, you might find out something has gone wrong too... rotating parts need to rotate to be happy

jswba

Yup, lesson learned. Cheers again.

cycleclinic

White Industries T11's or Dura Ace 9000 get my vite for handbuilts. I am sure you will be fine with many of the factory options. MAny rims options for handbuilts that don't have to be 32H Open Pro. Many wider rims come in 24H and 28H drillings

Ryde Pulse comps or sprint rims
DT Swiss RR440
H plus Archetype
Pacenti SL23
Kinlin XC-279
A new Kinlin that 24mm wide and 31 mm deep.
All but the XC-279 can be run tubeless and maybe the XC-279 can be too have not tired yet.

Many of those rim can be turned into 1400g -1700g wheelset depending on the spoke count and hubs used.

Go for factory if you want to pick them of the shelf and have something not worth repairing. Go for hanbuilts if you want something with a wide rim as mavic don't offer that at present.

paulelana

That new Kinlin looks interesting and hopefully given the price of the 279 should be reasonably priced. How many spokes, 20/24 or 24/28 for an 80kg rider and what weight would it build to with, say, miche hubs?

ugo.santalucia

paulelana wrote:

That new Kinlin looks interesting and hopefully given the price of the 279 should be reasonably priced. How many spokes, 20/24 or 24/28 for an 80kg rider and what weight would it build to with, say, miche hubs?

24/28... depends on the spokes... if you use Race at the back and Laser at the front you should around 1700 grams

secretsam

DA is fine if you run Shimano, what if you're a Campag user? And if you only want to spend (say) £350?

ugo.santalucia

SecretSam wrote:

DA is fine if you run Shimano, what if you're a Campag user? And if you only want to spend (say) £350?

Hope? Might be a bit of a stretch, but not far off

cal_stewart

I'm happy with the miche hubs thecycleclinic laced to some far sport rims I got custom drilled.

papavero

SecretSam wrote:

DA is fine if you run Shimano, what if you're a Campag user? And if you only want to spend (say) £350?

So long as you are using 11 speed put shimano cassette on it and it will play nicely with a campagnolo mech.

jswba

thecycleclinic wrote:

White Industries T11's or Dura Ace 9000 get my vite for handbuilts. I am sure you will be fine with many of the factory options. MAny rims options for handbuilts that don't have to be 32H Open Pro. Many wider rims come in 24H and 28H drillings

Ryde Pulse comps or sprint rims
DT Swiss RR440
H plus Archetype
Pacenti SL23
Kinlin XC-279
A new Kinlin that 24mm wide and 31 mm deep.
All but the XC-279 can be run tubeless and maybe the XC-279 can be too have not tired yet.

Many of those rim can be turned into 1400g -1700g wheelset depending on the spoke count and hubs used.

Go for factory if you want to pick them of the shelf and have something not worth repairing. Go for hanbuilts if you want something with a wide rim as mavic don't offer that at present.

Cheers for that; great advice. Will be looking into these options too

cal_stewart

Anyone using a 11 sp campagnolo wheels with Di2

cycleclinic

The new kinlin rim is going to be a lot more expensive. Looking at getting some but the price would be over £60 per rim. Not sure at present as kinlins have a reputation for being budget rims not premium ones. Besides there is a fair bit of rim choice as it is.

Dura ace hubs can be run with a 11 speed cassette with campagnolo drivetrains or Miche or novatec hubs.
The DT Swiss RR440 is not a tubeless rim either, forgot about that.

finknottle

Apologies for hijacking this thread but i'm looking for similar advice and it seemed silly to open a whole new thread...

I'm 90KG and looking for a set of wheels for around £700. I have a decent pair of handbuilt winter/commuter wheels (Hope hubs/Archetype rims) so the new set would solely be used for summer weekend rides and holidays. I do 3 or 4 trips abroad per year and have started trying to do some decent climbing. I did have a pair of Fulcrum Racing Zero but wacked a pothole last week and the wheel can't be repaired. The easy option is to go with the same model as I know I love them, but the fact that i've had to bin them makes me want to consider handbuilt as I understand they are easier to repair.

Sigma have recommended me Mavic Ksyrium Elite but they look like a bit of a downgrade on Fulcrum Zero. Also, I believe that Fulcrums have a higher rider weight limit so guess either Fulcrums or handbuilt would be the better option for me.

Any thoughts or advice please?

mrushton

Cal_Stewart wrote:

Anyone using a 11 sp campagnolo wheels with Di2

Not me, but it's an open secret that 11 speed Simano/Campagnolo are compatible, certainly using an Athena cassette. Not sure about Chorus upward


Dear Lennard,
Many months ago you wrote briefly that Shimano 11-speed and Campy 11-speed cassettes are interchangeable with a comment that you would have more on that to come. I’ve been reading and haven’t noticed any more, can you confirm that the two cassettes are interchangeable? I am curiously waiting to know if my DA9000 wheel will work on the Record 11 bike I am planning to build this year.

Thanks for your relentless compatibility answers.
— David

Dear David,
Yes, your DA9000 wheel with 11-speed DA9000 cogs will work on your Record 11 bike. Here is the follow-up article: “Compatibility hidden in plain sight”.
― Lennard

Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/02/ ... tdCJrti.99

I couldn't get the link to open but do some google-ing. Also found this but still linked to that article
https://www.facebook.com/VeloNewsMagazi ... 3569078656

cal_stewart

Athena uses a chours cassette. Looking at di2 tt bikes and don't want to buy new wheels. Good to hear.

As for wheels, I'm around the same weight Finknottle and I've learnt sniff is better than light for climbing. I'm using nemesis tubs on record hubs.

cycleclinic

in terms of indexing all shimano and campagnolo 11 speed cassettes are interchangable.

Stiff is better than light for climbing unless you can have both. However your build cal is particularly stiff.

Finknottle. Try specing a wheelset by not setting a budget. Rather set what you want from them. If you have that kind of money and given your weight HED Belgium + rims on DA hubs or Campagnolo record in 24F/28R or 32F/32R for record hubs would do nicely. Also consider tubular rims like Cal has or the HED belgian C2 tubulars. Tubs do things for the ride and handling that clinchers can't quite match.

Bar Shaker

Cal_Stewart wrote:

Anyone using a 11 sp campagnolo wheels with Di2

Yes, my GF has Fulcrum Quattros with an 11sp Chorus cassette (and Athena 11 front end) and 6870 Di2. It works perfectly.

32/32???

You could get a feel for what they would be like by riding with a small parachute attached to your seat post.

cycleclinic

You over state. a high spoke count wheel is not like riding with a parchute, not even close. While a lower spoke count makes a small difference to your overal aerodynamic drag you an still ride at a good speed 18+ mph solo over 80+ miles on a high spoke count wheelset. How do I know, I have done it. If you want proper aerodynamic wheels the rims have to wide and 50+mm deep.

philbar72

True, I've got 32hole 105 equipped training wheels and c24dura ace wheels. The only real difference is uphill on longer climbs as the 32h wheels are1900 grams. If I'm going over 30 mph on the flat there is a wattage penalty of around 16-20 watts, which isn't an issue.

On descents they are better wheels as they track the road better. They will last longer, and you can replace parts on them so much easier!

Bar Shaker

It's the spokes that cause the drag from wheels.

Deep section wheels work by replacing the fastest section of spoke (the end of the spokes at the top of the wheel) with a smooth carbon rim. Track bikes use discs as these have no spoke created aero drag.

Round spokes are worse than bladed spokes but the more you have, the more watts you need to maintain a certain speed. It's a simple rule of aero dynamics. A 32 spoke front wheel will create 60% more drag than a 20 spoke wheel if the same spokes are used on both.

Manufacturers strive to reduce spoke count for a reason.

lostboysaint

Bar Shaker wrote:

A 32 spoke front wheel will create 60% more drag than a 20 spoke wheel if the same spokes are used on both.

Proof please.

ugo.santalucia

Bar Shaker wrote:

It's the spokes that cause the drag from wheels.

Deep section wheels work by replacing the fastest section of spoke (the end of the spokes at the top of the wheel) with a smooth carbon rim. Track bikes use discs as these have no spoke created aero drag.

Round spokes are worse than bladed spokes but the more you have, the more watts you need to maintain a certain speed. It's a simple rule of aero dynamics. A 32 spoke front wheel will create 60% more drag than a 20 spoke wheel if the same spokes are used on both.

Manufacturers strive to reduce spoke count for a reason.

And so it goes...

However, having done extensive time taking over laps of Richmond park with a set of 36 spokes (DT comp) and a set of 24 spokes (CX Ray front DT comp rear) on the same tyres (Corsa CX tubs) I have never managed to get a conclusive piece of evidence saying one was faster than the other.

Yes, 32 spokes create more drag than 20... how much does that add up in watts? Apparently not a significant amount, not for me at least.... maybe I should cycle in a wind tunnel...

Bar Shaker

lostboysaint wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

A 32 spoke front wheel will create 60% more drag than a 20 spoke wheel if the same spokes are used on both.

Proof please.

It's very simple maths. Surely no proof needed.

How many indoor track races (where there is no danger of a cross wind) are run using spoked wheels? Why is that?

Think about this too.. The spoke at the bottom of the wheel is stationary, ie not travelling forward at all. The spoke at the top of the wheel is travelling forward at twice the speed of the bike. If the average spoke speed creates X watts of drag, the spokes at the top are creating X squared of drag. The more spokes, the more drag.

ugo.santalucia

Bar Shaker wrote:

How many indoor track races (where there is no danger of a cross wind) are run using spoked wheels? Why is that?

About 4 years ago I built a set of Dura Ace track hubs on Ambrosio Excellence and 32 DT comp spokes F&R for a friend. He recently sold the wheels to a guy in Ireland who races on the track... apprently he used them at the nationals and finished quite high up...
So yes, the flashy end of the sport that goes on TV use the aero-est wheels, the others do what they can and sometimes they do well regardless...

g00se

Here's some research from Zipp (it's a .pdf.bak file but just either rename it pdf or open it directly with a pdf reader)

http://www.zipp.com/_media/pdfs/technol ... nt.pdf.bak

Basically, they say that like-for-like, in terms of aero drag, the difference between 16 to 28 spokes is basically the same considered within the margin of error of the wind tunnel - though superficially, lower counts appear to have a marginal benefit. Spoke count has more effect on the stiffness and feel.

But rim shape and tyres have a much greater effect.

But when measuring wattage to spin in airflow, the results are even closer. it's all within a +-2 Watt margin of error. What appears to be more of an issue is the spoke shape - with bladed spokes having a greater effect.

lostboysaint

Bar Shaker wrote:

lostboysaint wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

A 32 spoke front wheel will create 60% more drag than a 20 spoke wheel if the same spokes are used on both.

Proof please.

It's very simple maths. Surely no proof needed.

How many indoor track races (where there is no danger of a cross wind) are run using spoked wheels? Why is that?

Think about this too.. The spoke at the bottom of the wheel is stationary, ie not travelling forward at all. The spoke at the top of the wheel is travelling forward at twice the speed of the bike. If the average spoke speed creates X watts of drag, the spokes at the top are creating X squared of drag. The more spokes, the more drag.

Of course it isn't simple maths. The changing speed of the wheel rim and tyre combination will alter the air flow over the spokes, the air flow over the spokes will alter dramatically, changing pressure patterns with speed etc. etc.

EDIT: Oh look someone has obviously googled and found that Zipp, who I expect know a tad more about it than you, can't prove it either.