Anyone know much about patents - saw this odd Campag one

g00se

Hi, something for the bike geeks.

For some reason (insomnia) I came across this recent patent from Campagnolo:

https://www.google.com/patents/EP2765073A1

A few odd things. Basically, it's an electronic SRAM-like 'double-tap' control. First I though, surely Campag aren't going to move over to the controls of a competitor? Then I remembered that the spy details on SRAM's electronic controls are left-lever: up... right-lever: down... both:change-front. Could this patent have stymied SRAM's plans to release an electronic double-tap?

Even more odd, in the details of the patent, it refers to another which is a patent on a mechanical double-tap system from 2006.

https://www.google.com/patents/WO2007083331A1

Which includes the paragraph:

At the Eurobike fair, Friedrichshafen, Germany, September 2005, a control device was introduced, having a single control lever actuated in a single direction. In such a control device, a soft push of the lever is supposed to cause gearshifting in a first direction, while a harder push on the lever in the same direction is supposed to cause gearshifting in a second direction. The structure of such a control device has not been disclosed.

That'll be SRAM's double-tap?

The technical problem at the basis of the invention is to provide a mechanically functional control device for a bicycle derailleur, which has such an actuation method.

So, that patent seems to be a specific implementation/copy of double-tap because SRAM didn't give one?

All a bit odd....


But from other bits of that patent and other filings, it looks like Campag are moving the EPS systems over to the new parallelogram shape used in the 2015 mechanical groups; changing the actuation from screw-drive to linear; possibly splitting the power/brains unit into separate units that can be further placed in the tubes and handlebars; considering blue-tooth signal controls (not power); considering ANT+-style metrics (heart rate, cadence, power) and gyros/accelerometers (climb rate) for auto-gear shifts. And interestingly, having the drivetrain charge the EPS battery - dynamo jockey-wheel?

bendertherobot

Dunno, but, buried deep in there is this:

"without having to form it on a too long swinging member."

Old_Timer

Paragraph 0007 has an interesting item, it would have the gear lever moving in 2 directions, each movement controlling a specific shifting direction in the same lever. Right now the SRAM double-tap is set up as having a single direction for the shifters.

I am not familiar with Campagnolo's conventions for EPS, so I am not certain if this changes that aspect of their operation. If the EPS system is like the SRAM and Shimano with the unidirectional shifter movement it would change Campagnolo's operation from the current double tap to a single lever with directional control of the derailleurs movement, if I understand the patent language in your first link. Interesting in that would be how I think of the system working if I was on a design engineering team.

thegreatdivide

Old_Timer wrote:

I am not familiar with Campagnolo's conventions for EPS, so I am not certain if this changes that aspect of their operation. If the EPS system is like the SRAM and Shimano with the unidirectional shifter movement it would change Campagnolo's operation from the current double tap to a single lever with directional control of the derailleurs movement

There's no difference between current mechanical and EPS shifters in terms of lever and thumb actions.

g00se

thegreatdivide wrote:

Old_Timer wrote:

I am not familiar with Campagnolo's conventions for EPS, so I am not certain if this changes that aspect of their operation. If the EPS system is like the SRAM and Shimano with the unidirectional shifter movement it would change Campagnolo's operation from the current double tap to a single lever with directional control of the derailleurs movement

There's no difference between current mechanical and EPS shifters in terms of lever and thumb actions.

Apart from the amount of sweep on the mechanical level (ultrashift) determines the number of gear changes - and with EPS it's the time the lever is pushed.

g00se

Old_Timer wrote:

Paragraph 0007 has an interesting item, it would have the gear lever moving in 2 directions, each movement controlling a specific shifting direction in the same lever.

I read it that if the lever actuates and deactivates the first switch (without reaching the second switch), then it changes in one direction. That will be akin to pressing and releasing the lever one notch. The second part is about pressing the lever further to actuate the second switch, which changes gear in the other direction when it is released.

It's the press and release that changes a single gear - the direction of change determined by how far the lever is initially pushed. It actuates the single gear change on the release - but if the lever is held in the 'on' position, then it starts doing multi-shifts until released.

thegreatdivide

g00se wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

Old_Timer wrote:

I am not familiar with Campagnolo's conventions for EPS, so I am not certain if this changes that aspect of their operation. If the EPS system is like the SRAM and Shimano with the unidirectional shifter movement it would change Campagnolo's operation from the current double tap to a single lever with directional control of the derailleurs movement

There's no difference between current mechanical and EPS shifters in terms of lever and thumb actions.

Apart from the amount of sweep on the mechanical level (ultrashift) determines the number of gear changes - and with EPS it's the time the lever is pushed.

True, but you still use the shift lever to go up the cassette/chain ring and the button to go down.

diy

Its the mechanism that is being protected not the method. It isn't easy to patent a method.

g00se

Ah, so it's more about protecting Campag's switching/tooling/gearing mechanisms in a SRAM-style implementation rather than the implementation itself?

me-109

The second patent wrote:

By convention, the control device of the front derailleur and the brake lever of the front wheel are located near to the left handgrip of the handlebars, and vice versa the control device of the rear derailleur and the brake lever of the rear wheel are located near to the right handgrip.

Only 'by convention' if you conventionally drive 'on the wrong side'!

Bar Shaker

thegreatdivide wrote:

Old_Timer wrote:

I am not familiar with Campagnolo's conventions for EPS, so I am not certain if this changes that aspect of their operation. If the EPS system is like the SRAM and Shimano with the unidirectional shifter movement it would change Campagnolo's operation from the current double tap to a single lever with directional control of the derailleurs movement

There's no difference between current mechanical and EPS shifters in terms of lever and thumb actions.

Despite all the short comings of using the thumb button!!

But could you imagine the howls if EPS had used a form of double tap?

The SRAM system uses a paddle shift layout but I had assumed it had two buttons each side. Pressing both for an FD change would seriously hamper the system. I have my Di2 set as paddle shift and changing FD and RD together with RD press and hold set to 3 cogs gives really good ratio transitions between the chainrings.

Using patents to block a rival is as old as the patent system itself.