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Brake Caliper Choice

JahmooJahmoo Posts: 168
edited October 2014 in Road buying advice
Hi Guys,

Little help please.

Just about to get a new bike, due to issues with my other new bike.

Issue it comes with Axis 1.0 Brake Calipers, would it be worth a £60 upgrade to Shimano 105's.

Or

Could I just upgrade the Brake Pads on Axis 1.0 for the moment. Then upgrade to something better early Spring?

What would you do?

Thank s in advance Jahmoo

Posts

  • gozzygozzy Posts: 640
    You certainly could just put different pads on and that'll probably make a decent difference. If you want to upgrade you'll pick up 105s for less than £60 if you look around or buy 2nd hand.
  • dj58dj58 Posts: 2,179
    Changing the pads is an easy upgrade if you are strapped for cash, then as you say save your pennies over the winter and buy yourself a pair of 5700 105's or 6700 Ultegra's which are now available at good discounts.

    http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-105-580 ... -calliper/

    http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-ultegra ... e-caliper/
  • lesfirthlesfirth Posts: 1,147
    If you do a bit of searching you will see that we have done this subject several times at great length.

    Anyone with a technical/scientific education will agree that its all about the pads. Others will have different ideas.
  • DKayDKay Posts: 1,652
    lesfirth wrote:
    If you do a bit of searching you will see that we have done this subject several times at great length.

    Anyone with a technical/scientific education will agree that its all about the pads. Others will have different ideas.

    I'm a science teacher and I do not agree that it's all about the pads. Shimano 5800 calipers can be bought for under £50 a pair and they would make a good upgrade, even with the stock Shimano pads. There is really no need for anything else, except for posing value.
  • Manc33Manc33 Posts: 2,157
    If figures like £50 are being thrown around you're not far off the cost of a pair of new Ultegra 6700 calipers.

    Or used Dura-Ace.

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/dura-ace-7700 ... 51c565f496

    Is it all about the pads? I never thought about it. My B'Twin calipers + Salmons have fared well (on an underpowered MTB lever + road caliper combo). In wet weather the Kool-Stop Salmon pads do give you that bit of extra... "faith". :lol:

    They are costly, but are also a luxury.
  • keezxkeezx Posts: 1,314
    Costley?
    I use them because they are cheap and good.
  • DKayDKay Posts: 1,652
    Manc33 wrote:
    If figures like £50 are being thrown around you're not far off the cost of a pair of new Ultegra 6700 calipers.

    Or used Dura-Ace.

    In my experience, the new 5800 calipers perform better than the older 6700. I know what I'd choose.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    6800 calipers work even better though. Of course the best brakes are Campagnolo Record but will cost you alot more.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • passoutpassout Posts: 4,609
    Pads are proabably more important than calipers but both make a difference. Personally I'd just get the 105s unless you've spent all your pennies. Look at Merlin Cycles.
    'Happiness serves hardly any other purpose than to make unhappiness possible' Marcel Proust.
  • lesfirthlesfirth Posts: 1,147
    DKay wrote:
    lesfirth wrote:
    If you do a bit of searching you will see that we have done this subject several times at great length.

    Anyone with a technical/scientific education will agree that its all about the pads. Others will have different ideas.

    I'm a science teacher and I do not agree that it's all about the pads. Shimano 5800 calipers can be bought for under £50 a pair and they would make a good upgrade, even with the stock Shimano pads. There is really no need for anything else, except for posing value.

    OK lets have a science lesson. Please explain why a dura ace caliper will stop your bike better than a sora caliper.
    Feel free to use any technical terminology . An expensive caliper may be lighter or it will look better, it might be made of titanium or carbon fibre but please tell me why it will do its job better.
  • mrushtonmrushton Posts: 5,182
    A question I'd like answered too. I've got Record and Chorus brakes (pre-skeleton) and at the time I compared them to DA and found them wanting compared to the Shimano. Things may have changed over the last few years but DA and Ultegra seem to be better.
    M.Rushton
  • DKayDKay Posts: 1,652
    edited October 2014
    lesfirth wrote:
    OK lets have a science lesson. Please explain why a dura ace caliper will stop your bike better than a sora caliper.
    Feel free to use any technical terminology . An expensive caliper may be lighter or it will look better, it might be made of titanium or carbon fibre but please tell me why it will do its job better.

    Stiffer due to different materials, casting/forging techniques, different mechnical leverage/geometry, higher quality components, tighter manufacturing tolerances and better durability. The fact they're lighter is a bonus, but then that all depends if you include that factor as part of the components function.

    That good enough for you? Although I'm assuming your question was rhetorical.

    Also, on my own subjective experience, the new generation of Shimano rim brakes are a noticeable step up in performance from the older range. You get way more power using them from the hoods especially.
  • This is an old test from 2009 but Dura Ace in both 7800 and 7900 came out best in terms of power, modulation and panic stop distance, and also had the highest deceleration figures

    http://www.eecycleworks.com/VNJune%20BrakeTest.pdf
  • kajjalkajjal Posts: 3,380
    If you upgrade to 105's or better you will see a marked improvement. Check the sales for the best price, £60 seems expensive to me. The stock brakes on a lot of bikes have poor pads and cheaply made callipers.
  • kajjalkajjal Posts: 3,380
    lesfirth wrote:
    DKay wrote:
    lesfirth wrote:
    If you do a bit of searching you will see that we have done this subject several times at great length.

    Anyone with a technical/scientific education will agree that its all about the pads. Others will have different ideas.

    I'm a science teacher and I do not agree that it's all about the pads. Shimano 5800 calipers can be bought for under £50 a pair and they would make a good upgrade, even with the stock Shimano pads. There is really no need for anything else, except for posing value.

    OK lets have a science lesson. Please explain why a dura ace caliper will stop your bike better than a sora caliper.
    Feel free to use any technical terminology . An expensive caliper may be lighter or it will look better, it might be made of titanium or carbon fibre but please tell me why it will do its job better.

    Why don't you buy a set of each and do a study ;)
  • DKayDKay Posts: 1,652
    This is an old test from 2009 but Dura Ace in both 7800 and 7900 came out best in terms of power, modulation and panic stop distance, and also had the highest deceleration figures

    http://www.eecycleworks.com/VNJune%20BrakeTest.pdf

    Interesting article. Would be good to see how the newer Shimano calipers would fare.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 6,803
    Hmmm, for me that test is something which is basically subjective trying to be scientific. Are they seriously telling us that Dura Ace stop a bike 30% faster than Record? Why didn't they just apply the brake a bit harder with the Record? All they are really saying is at either they felt more confident with one caliper over another or that they happened to execute their braking that bit better one time compared to another. I can buy that some calipers are a bit stiffer, maybe have better modulation and feel but when they start claiming relatively big differences between top end calipers it really does stretch credibility.
    AFC Mercia women - sign for us
  • DKayDKay Posts: 1,652
    Hmmm, for me that test is something which is basically subjective trying to be scientific. Are they seriously telling us that Dura Ace stop a bike 30% faster than Record? Why didn't they just apply the brake a bit harder with the Record? All they are really saying is at either they felt more confident with one caliper over another or that they happened to execute their braking that bit better one time compared to another. I can buy that some calipers are a bit stiffer, maybe have better modulation and feel but when they start claiming relatively big differences between top end calipers it really does stretch credibility.

    That also aren't using the same brake pads with each caliper either.
  • lesfirthlesfirth Posts: 1,147
    DKay wrote:
    lesfirth wrote:
    OK lets have a science lesson. Please explain why a dura ace caliper will stop your bike better than a sora caliper.
    Feel free to use any technical terminology . An expensive caliper may be lighter or it will look better, it might be made of titanium or carbon fibre but please tell me why it will do its job better.

    Stiffer due to different materials, casting/forging techniques, different mechnical leverage/geometry, higher quality components, tighter manufacturing tolerances and better durability. The fact they're lighter is a bonus, but then that all depends if you include that factor as part of the components function.

    That good enough for you? Although I'm assuming your question was rhetorical.

    Also, on my own subjective experience, the new generation of Shimano rim brakes are a noticeable step up in performance from the older range. You get way more power using them from the hoods especially.

    Sorry Sir but it is not good enough.

    Stiffer may be, but flexing of the caliper makes no difference to the force applied to the pads. Why a different method of manufacture can make an improvement needs further explaination. The geometry does not affect the cost of manufacture and has been optimised decades ago. They are all very similar. I do not doubt that better manufacturing will make them last longer but it will not make them stop your bike any better. If you think it will please explain why.

    The improvement in lever design I agree with but we are discussing calipers here.
  • Hmmm, for me that test is something which is basically subjective trying to be scientific. Are they seriously telling us that Dura Ace stop a bike 30% faster than Record? Why didn't they just apply the brake a bit harder with the Record? All they are really saying is at either they felt more confident with one caliper over another or that they happened to execute their braking that bit better one time compared to another. I can buy that some calipers are a bit stiffer, maybe have better modulation and feel but when they start claiming relatively big differences between top end calipers it really does stretch credibility.

    From the test notes in the article

    "For that, we used a panic stop — measuring how quickly each brake could decelerate from 40km/hr to 0km/hr. This test was preformed on a flat, windless road. For each brake, the rider accelerated to 40km/hr then grabbed the brakes — hard — on a pre-determined mark and recorded stopping distance. This test was performed 10 times for each brake, and the stopping distances were averaged."

    Also from the DA7900 test:

    "We had trouble harnessing the power of this brake in every situation, specifically our panic stop test. While able to produce two of the shortest stopping distances in the entire test, we also found ourselves in a few tense nose wheelies that threw its average score. Its shortest stopping distance produced an uncanny deceleration of 10.35 m/s^2, that’s over 1 G (as in g-force)."

    So whilst it's not a true scientific test, it's a good enough measure for me when averaged over 10 runs. If you have any better scientific data please do share.

    At the end of the day, there are a lot of variables involved and there is a trade off between the options. Pad compound being one variable - soft compound will stop you faster but produce more brake dust and wear faster. Harder compound will produce less dust and have a longer life but not stop you as quick. Rim material being another variable. Tyre compound being another variable. Road surface and also temperature also play a part. Rider experience too - it takes a lot of confidence to really slam on the brakes and have no fear of the back wheel coming up off the ground and being able to control it without going over the bars

    What I can say for sure having tried a bunch of lightweight calipers myself is that Ultegra and DA calipers, and the top end TRP calipers give excellent results both from the hoods and the drops, and leave you with less fatigue at the end of a long ride due to less force being required through the levers to fully stop or check speed.

    It's also worth noting that the higher end Shimano calipers & levers have a 1:4 cable pull ratio compared to 1:3 for most other levers/calipers. This reduces the amount of lever pull required to get the same amount of braking
  • DKayDKay Posts: 1,652
    lesfirth wrote:
    Sorry Sir but it is not good enough.

    Stiffer may be, but flexing of the caliper makes no difference to the force applied to the pads. Why a different method of manufacture can make an improvement needs further explaination. The geometry does not affect the cost of manufacture and has been optimised decades ago. They are all very similar. I do not doubt that better manufacturing will make them last longer but it will not make them stop your bike any better. If you think it will please explain why.

    The improvement in lever design I agree with but we are discussing calipers here.

    Of course flexing of the caliper will make a difference the amount of force applied to the rim. For a given amount of force at the lever, a stiffer caliper will transfer more of that force to the rim instead of flexing the actual caliper. A stiffer caliper will also give more predictable modulation from the lever. As for methods of manufacture, I'm not going to bother, or I'll be here forever.

    Of course a change of geometry is free, but that doesn't mean that manufacturers will design in optimum geometry for the lower end of their groupsets does it?

    Pretty much all rim calipers are capable of locking up wheels at will, but it's the ease of access to that power and modulation which the better calipers will get you.

    Anyway, I'm sure you're going to disagree with me whatever I reply with. So it's a moot point.
  • djaeggidjaeggi Posts: 107
    DKay wrote:
    Of course flexing of the caliper will make a difference the amount of force applied to the rim. For a given amount of force at the lever, a stiffer caliper will transfer more of that force to the rim instead of flexing the actual caliper.

    Think about this carefully. Lesfirth is partially correct - if you pull on a spring, stiffness only affects how far you have to pull for a given force, not the reaction force at the other end.

    Where lesfirth is wrong is that a brake caliper is a 3D device, and you only "don't care" about stiffness in one plane of operation. If you pull hard on the brakes with the bike stationary, watch how much the arms move and in which directions. Not all the force applied to bending the caliper gets transmitted to the pads.

    Anyway, this is all about modulation/control anyway - the person who can brake fastest is the person best able to keep the bike on the point of doing a stoppie for the longest period of time.
  • DKayDKay Posts: 1,652
    djaeggi wrote:
    Think about this carefully. Lesfirth is partially correct - if you pull on a spring, stiffness only affects how far you have to pull for a given force, not the reaction force at the other end.

    Yes, I agree with this. The illusion of a stiffer caliper feeling more powerful if due to it's better response and more solid feel, all other things being equal.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 6,803
    Hmmm, for me that test is something which is basically subjective trying to be scientific. Are they seriously telling us that Dura Ace stop a bike 30% faster than Record? Why didn't they just apply the brake a bit harder with the Record? All they are really saying is at either they felt more confident with one caliper over another or that they happened to execute their braking that bit better one time compared to another. I can buy that some calipers are a bit stiffer, maybe have better modulation and feel but when they start claiming relatively big differences between top end calipers it really does stretch credibility.

    From the test notes in the article

    "For that, we used a panic stop — measuring how quickly each brake could decelerate from 40km/hr to 0km/hr. This test was preformed on a flat, windless road. For each brake, the rider accelerated to 40km/hr then grabbed the brakes — hard — on a pre-determined mark and recorded stopping distance. This test was performed 10 times for each brake, and the stopping distances were averaged."

    Also from the DA7900 test:

    "We had trouble harnessing the power of this brake in every situation, specifically our panic stop test. While able to produce two of the shortest stopping distances in the entire test, we also found ourselves in a few tense nose wheelies that threw its average score. Its shortest stopping distance produced an uncanny deceleration of 10.35 m/s^2, that’s over 1 G (as in g-force)."

    So whilst it's not a true scientific test, it's a good enough measure for me when averaged over 10 runs. If you have any better scientific data please do share.

    At the end of the day, there are a lot of variables involved and there is a trade off between the options. Pad compound being one variable - soft compound will stop you faster but produce more brake dust and wear faster. Harder compound will produce less dust and have a longer life but not stop you as quick. Rim material being another variable. Tyre compound being another variable. Road surface and also temperature also play a part. Rider experience too - it takes a lot of confidence to really slam on the brakes and have no fear of the back wheel coming up off the ground and being able to control it without going over the bars

    What I can say for sure having tried a bunch of lightweight calipers myself is that Ultegra and DA calipers, and the top end TRP calipers give excellent results both from the hoods and the drops, and leave you with less fatigue at the end of a long ride due to less force being required through the levers to fully stop or check speed.

    It's also worth noting that the higher end Shimano calipers & levers have a 1:4 cable pull ratio compared to 1:3 for most other levers/calipers. This reduces the amount of lever pull required to get the same amount of braking

    Maybe the testers just set the Dura Ace calipers up in a way that suited them - they do say the Record pads sit quite far from the rim - maybe they should have had them closer. Maybe they are just used to the Dura Ace brakes and don't often use Record. Did they use the same bike with the same levers - if so maybe some levers suit some calipers in terms of cable pull?

    Bottom line is in what way could a Dura Ace caliper make that much difference compared to Record or any other high end caliper? If they can't explain why then the whole thing is meaningless.
    AFC Mercia women - sign for us
  • You would have to ask Velonews those questions as they ran the test. Or alternatively you could commission your own test, setting your own testing criteria and publish the results for everyone else's benefit :roll:

    PS are you butthurt because your favourite brand didn't win?
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 6,803
    Yeah that's right, you've got me, that's why I have Ultegra on my race bike, because I hate Shimano.

    You are right, no point thinking for yourself in the face of such "science"', case closed.
    AFC Mercia women - sign for us
  • Worth keeping an eye on the classifieds. I got a pair of unused Ultegra 6800s for £65
  • JahmooJahmoo Posts: 168
    OK Guys,

    Thank you very much for the advise and Science, much appreciated.

    I have decided to go for the 105's, as price is fitted and I can try to claw back a little for my Axis on eBay or scrap :D

    The bike is being set up tomorrow so will turn up with only one change and that is Tyres, which I have GP 4's to put on.

    I had Roubaix Disc for 3 months, I'm a big lad 100kg plus, reason to be concerned with brakes, as big lump to stop quick :oops:

    Maybe I will review the 105's over the BB7's in 3 Months!

    Jahmoo :)
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