Why are these wheels built differently and does it matter?

Manc33

Four wheels, all rear wheels. All 700c.

All of the below assumes 1) Freehub is facing you and 2) Valve hole is at 12 O'clock.

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"Mavic M3CD" 36H Rear Wheel (3 cross pattern)

Spoke just left of valve goes into the flange on your side, feeding the spoke away from you.
Next spoke left of that on the rim goes in the other flange of the hub, again feeding the spoke away from you.

The next spoke on the left goes on your side of the hub and goes in towards you.
The final spoke in the pattern goes on the other side of the hub and in towards you.

Drive side leading spokes are on the inside of the flange.

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"Triban 3" 32H Rear Wheel (3 cross pattern)

Spoke just left of valve goes into the flange on your side, feeding the spoke away from you.
Next spoke left of that spoke goes in the other flange of the hub, feeding the spoke away from you.

The next spoke on the left goes on your side of the hub and goes in towards you.
The final spoke in the pattern goes on the other side of the hub and in towards you.

Drive side leading spokes are on the inside of the flange.

This wheel and the first wheel are built exactly the same way. The next two differ to these
two (and to each other).

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"Wolber Modele 58" 36H Rear Wheel (3 cross pattern)

Spoke just left of valve goes into the flange on your side, feeding the spoke towards you.
Next spoke left of that spoke goes in the other flange of the hub, feeding the spoke towards you.

The next spoke on the left goes on your side of the hub and goes in away from you.
The final spoke in the pattern goes on the other side of the hub and in away from you.

Drive side leading spokes are on the outside of the flange.

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"Alex R380" 24H Rear Wheel (2 cross pattern)

Spoke just left of valve goes into the flange on your side, feeding the spoke away from you.
Next spoke left of that spoke goes in the other flange of the hub, feeding the spoke towards you.

The next spoke on the left goes on your side of the hub and goes in towards you.
The final spoke in the pattern goes on the other side of the hub and away from you.

Drive side leading spokes are on the inside of the flange.

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So the first two (Triban and Mavic) are exactly the same thing (except one is 32H and one is 36H but let's ignore that). The third one however (Wolber) is a swapped around version of the above two where the first two spokes go in towards you (instead of away), the next two spokes go in away from you (instead of towards you) and the drive side leading spokes go on the outside of the flange (instead of the inside). Then we have the fourth wheel which is kinda more different to the other three altogether, because the second spoke does not go in (away/towards) the same way as the first spoke does like on all the other wheels here, it instead alternates! Like the Triban and Mavic though - drive side leading spokes are once again on the inside of the flange.

Erk!

Have any of these wheelsets been laced up wrong? By the way I have not touched any of them regarding building, they are all either factory or hand built by professional wheel builders. Are they all perfectly alright and its just
different ways to end up with the same thing? Is one "better" over the other regarding strength?

I thought I saw on Sheldon Brown's page to make sure drive side leading spokes go on the outside of the flange? Three out of four rear wheels I have here have those spokes on the inside of the flange :?

"...trailing spokes, because they are the ones that run along the inside flanges of the hub."
- Sheldon Brown

Right then. :roll:

So how come three out of four of my wheels have the drive side leading spokes on the inside of the hub flange? Is the Wolber the only one built properly?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQJCefTpM4I

keezx

I always build with the trailing spokes outside the flange because they are supposed to be able to resist a heavier load.
But if somebody else does it different there might be a good reason for that.....

Manc33

Its just odd to me that if I follow what Sheldon Brown says, it is the less common way going off the four wheels I have. These 4 wheels are all years apart. Who knows how old the Wolber 58 is, the Mavic M3CD is from around 1991, the Triban 3 wheel is around 2011 and the Alex R380 is 2013.

Maybe whoever laced up the Wolber knew what they were doing and the other three... well just didn't care as much? All 4 of these rear wheels have been ridden for hundreds of miles without any problems. :roll:

Myself, I can't see how the inside and outside of a flange could really matter on the drive side as long as half the spokes on that side are leading and half trailing. Again though thats the opposite to what Sheldon Brown's says.

Manc33

Its because the rim holes might go "left, right, left, right" or "right, left, right, left" away from the valve hole.

rolf_f

Manc33 wrote:

Again though thats the opposite to what Sheldon Brown's says.

Well what did he know?!...........

JayKosta

I think it is mostly the builder's personal 'style' and 'belief' about spoke lacing.

There probably are small differences in stiffness and spoke breakage depending on whether the heads are 'in' or 'out' and which is 'leading' or 'trailing', but I doubt that it makes any noticeable difference while riding.

People have similar concerns about how to install the laces on their shoes.....

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Manc33

The way the spoke holes go left and right in the rim isn't related to the issue with leading/trailing, sorry I thought it was. There's too much to concentrate on at one time lol.

Looking at all 4 of these rear wheels, the drive side leading spokes (regardless of whether they are inside or outside the flange) all would be pushing the spoke they cross with into the wheel as opposed to them pushing spokes out, if you know what I mean, that is what Sheldon Brown is getting at but also adding that leading spokes should go on the outside of the flange and trailing go inside. Thats also the part where he says "It doesn't matter" at the bottom.

Maybe thats the priority then, not having drive side spokes pushing the crossed under spokes outwards when pedalling force is applied and potentially mashing the rear mech swingarm - thing is the swingarm isn't on a section of the wheel where any force is being applied... but let's ignore that. :P I mean that flexing happens all around the top and back of the cassette, the swingarm is at the bottom away from the bulk of the stress.

Don't go postal on me I could be wrong, I just assume a lot. You have to in this life.

On a fixie setup he says do it the other way so it would protect spokes more if you backpedalled and the chain came off. On setups with a rear mech he says they will be more protected if the chain comes off the low sprocket and into the wheel. My Alex rims are laced with drive side leading spokes on the inside and I do need to replace 2 spokes because the chain came off so he has a point lol. You're going to damage spokes either way but the Sheldon way protects them a bit more is all hence "It doesn't matter". I don't need to replace those spokes but I should.

Manc33

lol it would be easier learning Chinese than getting this right first time! Tried putting a rear MTB wheel back together, but the drive side spokes are about 1mm shorter (if that) than the non-drive side. I shouldn't have taken them out willy nilly at the start. So it ended up with odd short ones on the non-drive side and odd long ones on the drive side. Factor in the fact that some are bent, its a "noooitmare" as they say in the South. :roll:

I even tried weighing the spokes individually (scales that go to 0.01g) and the size difference is so small you can't even separate the spokes that way.

Its a good job I'm mucking about because this wheel ain't going back together this side of Christmas. :evil:

The lacing up went well (2nd time trying) following the Sheldon Brown guide.

Manc33

Doing this the Sheldon Brown way, leading drive side spokes end up crossing underneath the drive side trailing spokes. I have a rear wheel (Wolber 58) that was laced up a long time ago (could have been the 1960s) that is the "odd wheel out" in that it is laced up the way Sheldon Brown says. All my other newer rear wheels have the drive side leading spokes on the inside of the flange and that way, they cross over the drive side trailing spokes so the leading spokes are on the outside where it crosses. When "push comes to shove" I think its better having the leading spokes on that way. No way is right over the other but its just only one of my wheels is like that out of four wheels and I would rather go with the majority.

Quick way to describe the lacings:

DS = Drive Side
NDS = Non Drive Side
O = Outside Flange
I = Inside Flange
T = Trailing
L = Leading

Mavic
DS/O/T
NDS/I/T
DS/I/L
NDS/O/L

Alexrim
DS/O/T
NDS/O/T
DS/I/L
NDS/I/L

So on the Mavic it alternates and on the Alexrim it doesn't.

Both are right. :twisted:

On both of those, you end up with the leading spokes crossing over the outside of trailing spokes - regardless of which side of the flange the spokes went on, or if they alternated. The Mavic has leading (or trailing) spokes going on alternating sides, whereas the Alexrim has trailing all on the outside and leading all on the inside - the exact opposite to Sheldon Brown by the way.

So in total there's four ways that are "right" lol. The Sheldon Brown way, the Alexrim way (Opposite of Sheldon Brown) then the Mavic way with it alternating so leading spokes are on the inside on one side and the outside on the other, then you could have an opposite to that where you'd have outside spokes leading on the drive side BUT differing from Sheldon Brown in that instead of having the outside spokes on the other flange leading, they would be trailing. God knows which way is best. Maybe that last way since it combines the Sheldon Brown way with the alternating way. The fact that my Alexrim one is laced so all the trailing spokes are outside and all the leading spokes are inside is a bit odd but nevermind, its gone a few hundred miles no problem.

Manc33

Sorry, quadruple post, but I can break it down now I understand it.

You need the spokes so when force is applied to the pedals, the drive side trailing spokes "pull in" the drive side leading spokes where they cross. A lot of wheels aren't laced this way, or haven't been when I have looked. They are laced so when you pedal, the drive side trailing spokes "pull out" the leading spokes. :!:

Its seems to be then that Sheldon Brown found a better way like, a secret way. 8)

Ben6899

Mate.

http://www.theblogbuilders.com/how-to-s ... tAodqGcAFQ