Power Vs Racing level

iPete

Alex99 wrote:

ednino wrote:

I've just started doing some training with power & wanted to know what power/weight ratio different racers are at.

Currently at threshold of 2.93 W/Kg and I know I'm not fast enough for Cat4 on UK roads.

Anyone race Cat 4 want to post their power to give me an idea? What's needed to be in the bunch & what's needed to be competitive. Or even if mountain bikers care to say their power. Wonder what's need to get out of Sport Cat & into Expert Cat...

I went from cat 4 to 3 last year. I didn't have a power meter at the time, but based on my (now carefully calibrated to power) turbo trainer records, I was at approx. FTP 280, or 3.7 w/kg. I got all my points in crit sprint finishes. I didn't have the power to make any break stick. I was OK to see the end of 3/4 road races, but not enough to get places. Only one race this year and it wasn't pretty (cat 2/3) - dropped after 15 minutes. I train about 7 hours per week including any racing, which for me is all I can manage.

Don't worry, I got a shock jumping from 4s into a 2/3 road race too (about 4.2w/KG on paper). Lost all my club mates on the 1st lap and lasted 6/10 laps before tapping out. Try some 3rd only races, the difference is noticeable.

Alex99

iPete wrote:

Alex99 wrote:

ednino wrote:

I've just started doing some training with power & wanted to know what power/weight ratio different racers are at.

Currently at threshold of 2.93 W/Kg and I know I'm not fast enough for Cat4 on UK roads.

Anyone race Cat 4 want to post their power to give me an idea? What's needed to be in the bunch & what's needed to be competitive. Or even if mountain bikers care to say their power. Wonder what's need to get out of Sport Cat & into Expert Cat...

I went from cat 4 to 3 last year. I didn't have a power meter at the time, but based on my (now carefully calibrated to power) turbo trainer records, I was at approx. FTP 280, or 3.7 w/kg. I got all my points in crit sprint finishes. I didn't have the power to make any break stick. I was OK to see the end of 3/4 road races, but not enough to get places. Only one race this year and it wasn't pretty (cat 2/3) - dropped after 15 minutes. I train about 7 hours per week including any racing, which for me is all I can manage.

Don't worry, I got a shock jumping from 4s into a 2/3 road race too (about 4.2w/KG on paper). Lost all my club mates on the 1st lap and lasted 6/10 laps before tapping out. Try some 3rd only races, the difference is noticeable.

Thanks mate. Will do.

giropaul

A friend of mine has power figures that are significantly lower than mine. However, I can guarantee that in any race he will finish several places ahead of me, and will finish races I'm dropped on.
Power is, of course, a useful guide - but race- craft and skill have an important role to play as well.

AK_jnr

Whilst this subjects been brought back up;
What are your go to sessions for crits and road races?
Trying to make an effort to enter more road races this year. The 3 ive done - only 1 this year, I got detached on the longest climb of the circuit and couldnt get back on, sort of dangling off the back for the next half a lap or so before finally getting dropped.
I weigh about 71kgs (could be 67) and have raised my FTP up to 300 this winter.

Crits wise I am fine and im contending for good points. I dont have a sprint though. Only topping out at 1150 watts.

Edit. Im in the 3's by the way.

whatleytom

I'm no model but that power should see you competitive in 3rd Cat? I was only making 320w FTP at 80kg for most of last season, in terms of sprint only 1200w max, but 900w for 30s. Saw me from 4th up to 2nd Cat.

AK_jnr

To be honest I dont help myself, im always lurking around the back so have probably answered my own question really. I have been able to get away with it on crits and I suppose entering RR's has exposed that weakness.
But aside from that im still interested what sessions people do.

whatleytom

For me its just racing itself, chain gangs and training rides which are as close as training gets to simulate actual racing. Hard riding with a group for an hour, longer in the summer as the evenings get lighter. Longer rides at the weekend when not racing, varied intensity. Then when solo, 2x20 min sweet spot. 5 min intervals and sprint intervals.

Those are generally the sessions I would do, but again I'm no model and should probably do much more by way of structured sessions than I actually do. If you've got a PM then buying one of Coggan's books is probably a good place to start in order to get some quality interval sessions going. But essentially its probably going to revolve around power profiling, and training your subsequent weaknesses.

Also if you're not a member of a club, then my advice would be to join a racing club. Without a club to learn from/push me I wouldn't be anywhere close being 2nd Cat today.

AK_jnr

Cheers Tom(?).

I should probably join a race orientated club as mine is a bit old school.

I do have a PM yeah. Had it since August last year so still learning. I have the Friel book.

Did some hill reps today to see where I am at this point of the season and had a 7 minute (and 5 min) PB of 360 watts so feel like I am on the up hopefully.

philbar72

a former clubmate of mine was very interested in trying to get power PBs from every hard ride. now a lot of this would be different times such as 2 or 3 minute PBs, or 8 minutes on a longer climb or a 5 minute climb, for example then a session once a week of turbo work, where he went hard for 2x 20 or 2x12. it seemed to work for him!

penski

Very interesting thread, I shall hopefully contribute some more in a few months when I have reached Cat4 level

Davey37mtb

I've always found that a higher FTP doesn't really mean much in a lot of road races, my ftp isn't particularly high but i'm quite comfy in a national b and have won a few hard 2/3s. Normally its more about the composition/intensity of the race, the 20sec -3 mins efforts when it gets grippy that separate the field.

DavidJB

Davey37mtb wrote:

I've always found that a higher FTP doesn't really mean much in a lot of road races, my ftp isn't particularly high but i'm quite comfy in a national b and have won a few hard 2/3s. Normally its more about the composition/intensity of the race, the 20sec -3 mins efforts when it gets grippy that separate the field.

This.

nweststeyn

^^^ What they all say. My FTP is better than a lot of guys I race with, and I'm the one who is first to get dropped. A combination of responding poorly to repeated 10 - 30 second surges and very poor racecraft/positioning means I have sucked this year.

okgo

You'd be dropped even quicker with a lower FTP.

To say it doesn't matter is silly. Its a huge part of racing.

charlielac

Cat 4- 5w/kg for 20mins
weight- 60 kg

No crit wins for me

whatleytom

charlielac wrote:

Cat 4- 5w/kg for 20mins
weight- 60 kg

No crit wins for me

You're doing something seriously wrong then. I got a podium spot as a 4th cat off about 3.5w/kg at 80kg. Now competitive at 2nd Cat off 4 and a bit w/kg.

thomasmorris

I can see how circuit racing, especially those without sharp corners or short hills, you could drift around at 2-3 w/kg, never going in to the red then unleash a decent sprint to move out of 4ths pretty quickly.

However, 300 watts is quite a bit to play with, even with comparatively a rubbish sprint. You just need to make every race as hard as possible. Attack attack attack, until you either stay away or get dropped... unfortunately people just put in one or two non-committal attacks because they're afraid of being dropped once if they get caught, then role around to place 30th, lamenting the fact they'll never make 3rd cat.

Unless your power meter is way off... if you're near your 300 watt threshold just sat in the bunch, then maybe your 300 watt isn't really 300 watt?

whatleytom

Timing of attacks as well, if its an active race, then constantly counter attacking will likely help to cause splits.

iPete

charlielac wrote:

Cat 4- 5w/kg for 20mins
weight- 60 kg

No crit wins for me

Work on your 1-2 minute power and or pick a lumpy circuit with an uphill finish.

If it's a flat circuit that always ends in a bunch sprint (and if you don't have a great sprint @ 60kg) attack early or make sure you are near the front.

jgsi

Put in a decent 6 % hill for 1/2 mile per 10 mile lap... after 4 laps, yu might start to wish your ftp was higher... especially if you have no sprint and desperately want to pop the fat arsed sitters-in, so you and a few others are pushing it hard as.

Toks

thomasmorris wrote:

I can see how circuit racing, especially those without sharp corners or short hills, you could drift around at 2-3 w/kg, never going in to the red then unleash a decent sprint to move out of 4ths pretty quickly.

However, 300 watts is quite a bit to play with, even with comparatively a rubbish sprint. You just need to make every race as hard as possible. Attack attack attack, until you either stay away or get dropped... unfortunately people just put in one or two non-committal attacks because they're afraid of being dropped once if they get caught, then role around to place 30th, lamenting the fact they'll never make 3rd cat.

Unless your power meter is way off... if you're near your 300 watt threshold just sat in the bunch, then maybe your 300 watt isn't really 300 watt?

I fully endorse everything you've said. At 71kg I can just about bang out 290watt for 20mins and can't even get over a 1000 watts in a sprint but still managed a few wins as a 3rd cat this year. Sustained attacks in the 10-30sec bracket have been the game changer. I would also add that - not to go all out (100%) which I often used to do - with your attacks unless you know you've got a large gap that you can sustain it to the finish or as part of a breakaway. In those numerous attacks, try and surf off the back of attacks made by others and hold a little something back so you can latch on to the inevitable digs which go over the top of yours once you're caught