Inexpensive tubular wheelset

chrisǃ

Hello,

After getting the CX bug I'm now looking at getting a set of tubular wheels/tires. I'm pretty set on Dugast Rhinos for the tires but I'm looking for an inexpensive wheelset to mount them on.
I spotted these Carbotech K22 for £80 on merlin but they seem almost too cheap! Can anyone recommend a decent rim brake wheelset for under £200?
http://www.merlincycles.com/carbotech-k ... 61300.html

Thanks

andyp

I don't think there's much wrong with the wheels, given the price. Formula hubs are cheap but reliable, and spares are easy to come by. The spoke count might be a bit low if you're on the heavy side, or hard on equipment, but that apart they are great value.

Alternatively, Hubjub do the Kinlin TB25 rims, which I've used for cross and have been fine, for £30 each, so combine them with your hubs of choice and a reputable wheel builder and you'd hit your £200 target.

VamP

Get two sets of the Carbotechs, and some intermediate tubs for the second set. The disease has struck. There is no cure.

ugo.santalucia

andyp wrote:

Alternatively, Hubjub do the Kinlin TB25 rims, which I've used for cross and have been fine, for £30 each, so combine them with your hubs of choice and a reputable wheel builder and you'd hit your £200 target.

Considering Velocity Major Tom is not a lot more and much more suited to take bigger tyres, that's what I would go for... with Novatec hubs and Alpina spokes the OP should still be able to get them for 210-220

tgotb

For a fixed budget, you'll be better off with two cheaper sets of wheels (and therefore a choice of tyres) than one single set of more expensive ones.

Also bear in mind that if you puncture a tub it'll take a while to get it fixed and reglued; having a second set of wheels means there's no risk of missig the next race.

VamP

TGOTB wrote:

For a fixed budget, you'll be better off with two cheaper sets of wheels (and therefore a choice of tyres) than one single set of more expensive ones.

Also bear in mind that if you puncture a tub it'll take a while to get it fixed and reglued; having a second set of wheels means there's no risk of missig the next race.

Yeah but when does it ever stop 8 wheelsets, and definitely needing at least another two!

tgotb

That is an issue.

It's when you see an interesting new tread (FMB Slalom in my case) and decide that the easiest way to try them is to build a new pair of wheels to mount them to. And if the treads end up being good, you obviously want to have mounted them onto good wheels...

Mind you, in relatively dry conditions at Culham yesterday everyone on the front of the grid seemed to be using muds. With hindsight I think intermediates might have been better, and a couple of people were raving about their choice of file treads. It probably doesn't matter as much as we like to think it does :roll:

VamP

TGOTB wrote:

That is an issue.

It's when you see an interesting new tread (FMB Slalom in my case) and decide that the easiest way to try them is to build a new pair of wheels to mount them to. And if the treads end up being good, you obviously want to have mounted them onto good wheels...

Mind you, in relatively dry conditions at Culham yesterday everyone on the front of the grid seemed to be using muds. With hindsight I think intermediates might have been better, and a couple of people were raving about their choice of file treads. It probably doesn't matter as much as we like to think it does :roll:

Quite.

But the wonderful hours of delicious agonizing pre-race! Worth every penny.

ugo.santalucia

TGOTB wrote:

It probably doesn't matter as much as we like to think it does :roll:

That is the case for pretty much any hobby... we tend to become obsessive and every behaviour which would be considered good enough for sectioning by most, is seen as perfectly reasonable... having 8 sets of wheels is only one example.

chrisǃ

Cheers for the comments guys. Re the comment about it getting out of hand that is a very good point! I have very nearly ended up with 303's and a large credit card bill!
Am I correct in my thinking of spending more on the tubulars than the wheels themselves?
My budget isn't set strictly at £200, its just if I spend more I want some benefits. I've been looking at the Planet X CT45 tubs which seem pretty decent value at £300?

ugo.santalucia

Chris! wrote:

Cheers for the comments guys. Re the comment about it getting out of hand that is a very good point! I have very nearly ended up with 303's and a large credit card bill!
Am I correct in my thinking of spending more on the tubulars than the wheels themselves?
My budget isn't set strictly at £200, its just if I spend more I want some benefits. I've been looking at the Planet X CT45 tubs which seem pretty decent value at £300?

Yes, if you only use them for racing, they'll do 12 hours or so of riding in a season, which is nothing... any wheel can handle that. However, if you do use them for training and start clocking up the mileage, then better to get something decent.
The Planet X are excellent race day wheels and can be serviced/repaired if it needs. Be sensible though, piercing a hole in a carbon rim is fairly easy... you can crack open a carbon rim just by squeezing it really hard in the mid section

tgotb

Chris! wrote:

Cheers for the comments guys. Re the comment about it getting out of hand that is a very good point! I have very nearly ended up with 303's and a large credit card bill!
Am I correct in my thinking of spending more on the tubulars than the wheels themselves?
My budget isn't set strictly at £200, its just if I spend more I want some benefits. I've been looking at the Planet X CT45 tubs which seem pretty decent value at £300?

In terms of bang-for-buck, I reckon there are alternatives to hand-built tubs. For instance, these caught my eye the other day:
http://www.sigmasport.co.uk/item/Specia ... /VUL?wmp=5
I've never ridden Terras, but I can think of at least one very fast guy who does.

If you're buying tubs for racing, you really want a pair of clinchers for training (almost anything with decent bearing seals will probably do the job).

chrisǃ

They'll be used for racing and one or two training rides, so not an awful lot.
TGOTB - I spotted those the other day as well, my thinking was though if I'm spending time mounting tubs I want to be sure they're very good/the best.
I've already got clinchers with specialized tracers on for training.

andyp

I've raced on the Specialized Tracer's, also half price at Sigma, in a variety of conditions and they've been superb. I really rate them, especially at that price, and you don't need to faff around with Aquaseal on the sidewalls.

ugo.santalucia

Another consideration, although remote, is that technically speaking neither Planet X nor any Chinese carbon wheel should be allowed in a BC promoted cyclocross race, as they aren't UCI legal. Then what happens in the real world is a different story, but you never know... you might find the overzelous marshall who flags you...

andyp

I'd point the marshall at the guy on a MTB first, given they aren't UCI legal in cross.

More seriously, only certain BC races, such as National Trophy rounds, comply fully with UCI regulations. The rest don't have to worry about them.

tgotb

andyp wrote:

I'd point the marshall at the guy on a MTB first, given they aren't UCI legal in cross.

More seriously, only certain BC races, such as National Trophy rounds, comply fully with UCI regulations. The rest don't have to worry about them.

I've just checked the BC rules, turns out the wheel restrictions apply to all BC cyclocross races. What this means in practice is that your wheels either have to be on the magic list, or conform to the definition of a "standard (traditional)" wheel, defined as follows:

A traditional wheel is deemed to be a wheel with at least 16 metal spokes; the spokes may be round, flat or oval, provided that no dimension of their cross sections exceeds 2.4 mm; the section of the rim must not exceed 2.5 cm on each side.

So, assuming the 2.5cm is the rim depth and not just the width, everyone riding around with handbuilt wheels on deep carbon rims (or even some deep aluminium rims) is technically illegal. In practice their use is fairly widespread, and it would be very hard to argue that use of such wheels in a CX race was either dangerous or gave an unfair advantage over someone on Zipps, but it's not a great situation where the written rules don't reflect what a good proportion of the field is doing.

Unlikely to be an issue for MTBs, as their wheels should come within the definition of "standard".

ugo.santalucia

TGOTB wrote:

andyp wrote:

I'd point the marshall at the guy on a MTB first, given they aren't UCI legal in cross.

More seriously, only certain BC races, such as National Trophy rounds, comply fully with UCI regulations. The rest don't have to worry about them.

I've just checked the BC rules, turns out the wheel restrictions apply to all BC cyclocross races. What this means in practice is that your wheels either have to be on the magic list, or conform to the definition of a "standard (traditional)" wheel, defined as follows:

A traditional wheel is deemed to be a wheel with at least 16 metal spokes; the spokes may be round, flat or oval, provided that no dimension of their cross sections exceeds 2.4 mm; the section of the rim must not exceed 2.5 cm on each side.

So, assuming the 2.5cm is the rim depth and not just the width, everyone riding around with handbuilt wheels on deep carbon rims (or even some deep aluminium rims) is technically illegal. In practice their use is fairly widespread, and it would be very hard to argue that use of such wheels in a CX race was either dangerous or gave an unfair advantage over someone on Zipps, but it's not a great situation where the written rules don't reflect what a good proportion of the field is doing.

Unlikely to be an issue for MTBs, as their wheels should come within the definition of "standard".

Exactly...
Not a problem now, but who knows in the future... there might be pressure from the market to enforce the regulations. After all Mavic and Zipp are probably fed up of losing market shares to dodgy Chinese imports and cheaper look-alike. If they can't fight the free market, they will turn the regulations screw tighter...

The UCI way might not be the best way of doing it, but personally I think there should be some form of safety regulations around all these nameless chinese rims... haven't seen much in the way of ISO stickers, for instance.

tgotb

I disagree. I've seen no evidence that "nameless Chinese rims" are the deathtraps that you constantly claim they are, or that the big-name manufacturers are any better. In fact, other than those caused by crashes, the only carbon rim failure I've seen was a Zipp 303 (cracked rim around nipple holes, not replaced under warranty). I've also seen numerous rim failures in wheels that are on the UCI list. My observation is that hand-built wheels on Chinese rims tend to be a lot *more* reliable than many of the UCI-approved factory built wheels.

In any case, I can think of few places where a catastrophic rim failure would be less dangerous, than a CX race. I'd be far more worried about people doing road races on Aksiums or worn-out Open Pros.

Edit: If you want safety stickers, you may be talking yourself out of a job; bear in mind that they'd almost certainly be applied to the whole wheel rather than just the rim. If it went the way of other equipment sports (eg sailing) you could even find that the legal restrictions for non-racing equipment end up being tighter still...

ugo.santalucia

TGOTB wrote:

I disagree. I've seen no evidence that "nameless Chinese rims" are the deathtraps that you constantly claim they are, or that the big-name manufacturers are any better. In fact, other than those caused by crashes, the only carbon rim failure I've seen was a Zipp 303 (cracked rim around nipple holes, not replaced under warranty). I've also seen numerous rim failures in wheels that are on the UCI list. My observation is that hand-built wheels on Chinese rims tend to be a lot *more* reliable than many of the UCI-approved factory built wheels.
.

My observation was unrelated to CX, where it's a non issue. Chinese carbon rims are for what we know untested, when it comes to friction generated heat (FGH). Zipp and all the big players do extensive tests and have significantly improved their resins to cope with FGH and pass their own stringent tests.
IMO all carbon rims with a brake track should be certified and pass such test, from an independent body. Of course that means they will cost more, but if we deem a chinese phone charger illegal, why should a potentially dangerous rim be legal instead?

VamP

ugo.santalucia wrote:

My observation was unrelated to CX, where it's a non issue. Chinese carbon rims are for what we know untested, when it comes to friction generated heat (FGH). Zipp and all the big players do extensive tests and have significantly improved their resins to cope with FGH and pass their own stringent tests.
IMO all carbon rims with a brake track should be certified and pass such test, from an independent body. Of course that means they will cost more, but if we deem a chinese phone charger illegal, why should a potentially dangerous rim be legal instead?

Surely that's a non-issue with tubular rims.

ugo.santalucia

VamP wrote:

Surely that's a non-issue with tubular rims.

In terms of the tyre exploding yes, in terms of the rim warping/delaminating at speed it makes no difference clincher or tubular. Getting to a stop on a delaminated rim coming down a 10% descent can be dangerous, especially if it's the front

tgotb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

My observation was unrelated to CX, where it's a non issue.

At the risk of stating the obvious, this is a CX forum, and the OP was asking about CX wheels. Indeed, when you raised the point about legality, it was specifically in the context of CX racing.

ugo.santalucia

TGOTB wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

My observation was unrelated to CX, where it's a non issue.

At the risk of stating the obvious, this is a CX forum, and the OP was asking about CX wheels. Indeed, when you raised the point about legality, it was specifically in the context of CX racing.

OK, but seeing the regulations about wheels are exactly the same, I felt entitled to digress...

BTW: did you know 33 mm is the max size tyre allowed in cyclocross? Is there a rationale to the rule?

On_What

also a good reason to run disc brakes

tgotb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

BTW: did you know 33 mm is the max size tyre allowed in cyclocross? Is there a rationale to the rule?

It's to encourage some level of standardisation, with the aim of keeping costs down. Before the rule was brought in, pro riders weren't merely turning up to races with a range of treads, but also a range of widths.

VamP

ugo.santalucia wrote:

VamP wrote:

Surely that's a non-issue with tubular rims.

In terms of the tyre exploding yes, in terms of the rim warping/delaminating at speed it makes no difference clincher or tubular. Getting to a stop on a delaminated rim coming down a 10% descent can be dangerous, especially if it's the front

I have only ever heard of clinchers delaminating. Can you provide evidence of tubs delaminating?

chrisǃ

Just a quick heads up, I've just received the carbotech wheels from Merlin, they seem okay for £80. Obviously the quality isn't amazing but for £80 they're good! I also scored some FMB SSC superprestige tubs for a good price of ebay so I'm in the process of mounting them up now. I can't wait to ride them!

cycleclinic

I would not trust any carbon rim on a proper mountain decent no matter the testing. If the braking load could get a alloy rim hot then it maybe too much for a carbon. I have got alloy rim too hot to touch, glad I did that decent on alloy rims.

I am still alive after riding this year on far eastern carbon rims. Many do actually use high Tg resisns. You try getting Zipp, Mavic e.tr.c or a chinese firm to tell you what resins have been used in there rims. No one says anything and tests well how realistic are they. Plenty of various test for products that do not always reflect reality take car mpg figures. Zipps wheels sometimes fail, so do Renoylds so do other named brands. My car passed its MOT it does not mean tomorrow that the brakes can't fail.

Stans alloy rims sometimes loose a clincher tubed tyre, should they be subject to a safety test. Plenty of brakes give poor performance. Should all brakes have to meet a certain standard. The list goes on and on.