Living in Austria

Pross

Surely the reason the Dutch and similar sized nations tend to speak foreign languages so well is that in such a global society it is a necessity when so few people speak your first language? The converse is true of English and other widely spoken languages - such a large proportion of the world's population speak them that it is less imperative for those who speak English as a first language to learn another language.

I would agree that the education system in this country falls short on teaching foreign languages (I did French for 5 years and German for 2 or 3 but can't manage more than a very basic conversation in French and being able to understand a few written words in both. At the time I wasn't worried and passed my French GCSE but now really wish I could speak another useful language). However, if English was a minority language then the teaching of foreign languages would obviously be a much higher priority in the education system here.

laurentian

Pross wrote:

Surely the reason the Dutch and similar sized nations tend to speak foreign languages so well is that in such a global society it is a necessity when so few people speak your first language? The converse is true of English and other widely spoken languages - such a large proportion of the world's population speak them that it is less imperative for those who speak English as a first language to learn another language.

I would agree that the education system in this country falls short on teaching foreign languages (I did French for 5 years and German for 2 or 3 but can't manage more than a very basic conversation in French and being able to understand a few written words in both. At the time I wasn't worried and passed my French GCSE but now really wish I could speak another useful language). However, if English was a minority language then the teaching of foreign languages would obviously be a much higher priority in the education system here.

Exactly, if schools and careers advisers etc. were inundated with feedback telling them that many school leavers and graduates were unable to find employment due to them not being able to speak a foreign language, I am sure that there would be a greater emphasis on it particularly in further education. But this is not the case.

I often have business meetings in France and Germany, often with a mix of French, German and British people. The language spoken throughout is always English - they even continue in English when speaking Frenchman to Frenchman outside of the meeting. I reckon I could travel through France for a couple of months, or even live there without speaking a word of English and always make an effort to learn the "basics" wherever I am (principally "hello", "please", "thank you" and "can I have a beer please"). We are lucky in that most of the world speaks English to some degree making the learning of a foreign language less of a priority. If only UK teenagers could speak it as well as their Dutch or Sri Lankan counterparts . . .

ugo.santalucia

Nobody is questioning the fact that English is the dominant language... but the lack of foreign language in school means you are more likely to limit your horizons to English speaking countries, that's all.

5 years of French and not being able to speak it is very depressing... and private schools charging 10 K per year are not better...

ddraver

ugo.santalucia wrote:

ddraver wrote:

You are nt the easiest people to make friends with...

I lived in Amsterdam for nearly 2 years and never managed to make any Dutch friend... it might have been different had I lived in Groningen, I suppose. Amsterdam is too international and the drive to learn the language very weak. I never went beyond learning the very basics of how to ask for things and a bit of manners. Like other folks, the Dutch like to speak their own language among themselves... so making friends speaking only English is a tad harder

I'd say it's 50% that (The Hague is no different) and 50% this* The Dutch tend to have very rigid groups of friends. For example you'll hang out with your school friends, uni friends or work friends but never shall the 2 groups meet! If you re on your own in a new city this makes it very very hard. In Leiden, which is a tad more free spirited, Dutch people that would deem me worth of hanging out with them usually described them selves as "weird and hippy". My house mate played for a hockey team for 3 or 4 seasons and she still could not convince them to see her individually or come to one of our many parties or nights etc. Contrast that to the Rugby team in London that my sister's bf plays for who welcome me like a long lost brother every time I meet them.

It's not a complaint (well, yes it is...), it's just the Dutch way, but it does make life hard for an expat.

*wild sweeping generalisation alert

ddraver

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Nobody is questioning the fact that English is the dominant language... but the lack of foreign language in school means you are more likely to limit your horizons to English speaking countries, that's all.

5 years of French and not being able to speak it is very depressing... and private schools charging 10 K per year are not better...

Agreed, Effectively I learned French 3 times since age 8. We started from scratch every 3 years up to GCSE to make sure that everyone from other schools could catch up. By any measure that is chuffing ridiculous!!

Garry H

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Nobody is questioning the fact that English is the dominant language... but the lack of foreign language in school means you are more likely to limit your horizons to English speaking countries, that's all.

5 years of French and not being able to speak it is very depressing... and private schools charging 10 K per year are not better...

I don't think the problem is a lack of opportunity to learn a foreign language in school. Like Pross mentioned above, I also learned German and French for 3 and 5 years respectively. I'm also bi-lingual (Welsh). The problem I think is that once you leave school, there's very little opportunity to speak the language, especially for those brought up in rural areas, like myself.

I spent best part of a year in Japan when I was much younger and it's surprising how much spoken language you can pick up when you really need to.

Anonymous

I studied French and Spanish to A Level, did a year abroad, had a great group of local friends but now I am back in the UK, pretty much never use it apart from the annual trip to Belgium at Christmas. Pretty annoying as you seriously notice it slipping. I suppose I could hang out with some foreign types, but I presume they would be here to learn English. Would love to work abroad for a bit.

veronese68

coriordan wrote:

I studied French and Spanish to A Level, did a year abroad, had a great group of local friends but now I am back in the UK, pretty much never use it apart from the annual trip to Belgium at Christmas. Pretty annoying as you seriously notice it slipping. I suppose I could hang out with some foreign types, but I presume they would be here to learn English. Would love to work abroad for a bit.

I think when you get back to speaking it you find it comes back to the fore after a couple of days. When I go to Italy it usually takes a couple of days to get into it properly. Then after a while the voices in my head even speak Italian.

pblakeney

Veronese68 wrote:

Then after a while the voices in my head even speak Italian.

This did not surprise me.

MountainMonster

For those saying German is an easy language to pick up, best of luck, you clearly don't speak German at any kind of acceptable level, other than ordering beers. Behind Japanese and Mandarin it is the hardest language to learn across the board.

Try this on for size. If I say The Mother (Die Mutter) in one sentence she stays a woman, denoted by 'die' which is the feminine article. If I use it in another sentence, she becomes Der Mutter (masculine article) and the whole organisation of the sentence has to be changed. I am very happy to have that learning stage behind, as it is ridiculous how their language operates.

BelgianBeerGeek

Interesting perspective from some perhaps non-native English speakers (really mean no offence)
Yes, learning a different language is difficult, but what's to stop you having a go? At worst, you will sound like a "funny foreigner", you don't have to master it (or need to).
You will be doing it deliberately, my grandad was Polish and had to get by in the UK.
I love going abroad with my terrible French (and worse German). Jump in and assume goodwill.

briantrumpet

MountainMonster wrote:

For those saying German is an easy language to pick up, best of luck, you clearly don't speak German at any kind of acceptable level, other than ordering beers. Behind Japanese and Mandarin it is the hardest language to learn across the board.

I learnt German for a couple of years, but the word order (verb at end) wasn't to my liking (i.e. I wasn't very good at it). I found French easier, with similar sorts of word order to English.

A friend of mine is a proper linguist (having written several textbooks on various European languages), and he knows a professional German interpreter who when translating into English often tells her German speakers "verb please!" ... it's all very well knowing who, where, what and everything else, but what is the verb that links all these things together? The suspense is just too much for me.

robbo2011

MountainMonster wrote:

For those saying German is an easy language to pick up, best of luck, you clearly don't speak German at any kind of acceptable level, other than ordering beers. Behind Japanese and Mandarin it is the hardest language to learn across the board.

Try this on for size. If I say The Mother (Die Mutter) in one sentence she stays a woman, denoted by 'die' which is the feminine article. If I use it in another sentence, she becomes Der Mutter (masculine article) and the whole organisation of the sentence has to be changed. I am very happy to have that learning stage behind, as it is ridiculous how their language operates.

+1.

I've been living in switzerland for the past three years and am still struggling with my german. And then i have swiss german to deal with as well which is a whole other ball game.

finchy

Anyone who thinks that German is the hardest European language to learn should have a go at Hungarian or one of the Slavic languages. :shock:

rcj

I have been living in Vienna for over 7 years now after planning originally for 2 or 3 years only. When I moved here, my German was slightly above non-existent but not by much. I can now get by quite OK in most situations but there are still times when I am completely stumped especially if you are speaking to someone using the Viennese dialect or if I am in an unfamiliar situation. At the beginning it was very difficult as everything is different, the shops are shut Sundays, they do not sell the biscuits you like etc etc, but it does get easier. If I had to give advice, it would echo that of others and would be to learn the language, or at least the basics. It really is appreciated and makes your life much easier. I am "lucky" that I work in IT so English is very dominant.

As for the country itself, it is a great place if you like the outdoors. You have mountains or big hills pretty much all over the place if you like to run/cycle/hike etc and there is obviously a big winter sports industry here.

I think overall it is a good environment to bring up my children and the education standard is high. I have two daughters who were both born here and are both now in Kindergarten. The oldest is 5 and speaks fluent German and English and can switch between them without blinking. It is amazing to see and I am envious. I honestly believe that she would not be able to get language skills close to this by living in the UK but a lot of this is down to the exposure. We lead an outdoors type lifestyle and there is always somewhere new to go or something different to do within a short distance. It took a while but I now feel at home here.