That **** Cameron

anonymousblackfg

Until the out of work are made to sit on exercise bikes generating electicity for the grid proportional to their level of giros i'm not sure we'll move forward.

The bit at the start of this thread I can't get my head around is the level expectation that everyone should get a job which pays them a good wage. Without massive subsidy or equal pay for everyone how can this ever work and where is the motivation to every work harder or attain better qualifications and experience to raise yourself up the earnings curve.

As much as there are large parts of the US which annoy me, at least it has an entrepreneurial culture for people to get off their arse and do something.

pliptrot

anonymousblackfg wrote:

Until the out of work are made to sit on exercise bikes generating electicity for the grid proportional to their level of giros i'm not sure we'll move forward.

The bit at the start of this thread I can't get my head around is the level expectation that everyone should get a job which pays them a good wage. Without massive subsidy or equal pay for everyone how can this ever work and where is the motivation to every work harder or attain better qualifications and experience to raise yourself up the earnings curve.

As much as there are large parts of the US which annoy me, at least it has an entrepreneurial culture for people to get off their ars* and do something

Seems like a lot of things annoy you. Voting UKIP? Your (somewhat confusing and totally irrational) arguments pivot on the idea that life -and work- reward merit. They don't, they never have, and it is not their purpose. It is, by the way, entirely possible for everyone to have a job that pays a good wage. Forcing hardship on others is counter-productive, as the rich have sometimes found out. I can see no sense or value in establishing a system where 50% of the population struggle badly, just to survive. That is the system in the US, your "entrepreneurial culture."

ballysmate

Fully agree that no-one should starve but benefits/welfare/social security should be a safety net and not a way of life.
Years ago, there was stigma attached to claiming social security, which was wrong. Contrast that attitude to today's where the first thing in people's mind is 'How much can I claim?' be it benefits or from an accident or someone's mistake.
The something for nothing society.

bdu98252

I actually agreed with the bulk of the Tory party conference this year apart from that they are not radical enough.

The current process of topping up workers wages with benefits is neither sustainable nor beneficial to the people receiving this benefit. If I was in change for a day I would reset the system and take the minimum wage to a level where there are not benefits for someone who works the 40 hours per week and remove the worker subsidies.

Currently the system means that going to work for longer removes benefits and results in a situation where people are working for a very small percentage of their wage increase or a negative amount. Whilst these people may not be the next Einstein I would put it to you that they can work out this basic maths equation better than those in government.

Unfortunately those that do not wish to work or are unable would essentially be worse of than those in work and I would maintain a minimum 20% difference through manipulating the benefits system yearly. People at the bottom are just playing the system to top people create blaming them for working out what is in their best interests is not productive as the vast majority of the UK would do exactly the same.

anonymousblackfg

The above implies I should be able to be fine without much effort, I wish no harm or hardship on anyone else but sadly this utopian dream just can't exist. Even in countries where they can effortlessly pump free money out the ground to pay for services there are still the haves and have nots.

Trust me, i'm no UKIP supporter.

Frank the tank

The point is, how can a person stand on a platform and announce they are "for hard working people" then in the next breath put forward a policy that will have a derogatory effect on a lot of those hard working people?

Forget the politics, quantify those statements as they seem to be totally at odds with each other to me.

For the benefit of Cib, I've previously said I hold no torch for the tories with red rosettes. I post that as he seemed to want to lecture me about Tory Blair and Gordon Brown!

Pross

Can someone point me in the direction of a country with a 'fair society' i.e. no matter whether you can't work or whatever job you work in you end up with roughly the same income (I'm assuming everyone agrees that those who choose not to work don't deserve parity)? The way some people talk it's a simple process to 'redistribute' wealth so I can never work out why it isn't just the standard model everywhere. I seem to recall a few countries trying it in the early 20th century and going from bad to worse.

finchy

Pross wrote:

Can someone point me in the direction of a country with a 'fair society' i.e. no matter whether you can't work or whatever job you work in you end up with roughly the same income (I'm assuming everyone agrees that those who choose not to work don't deserve parity)? The way some people talk it's a simple process to 'redistribute' wealth so I can never work out why it isn't just the standard model everywhere. I seem to recall a few countries trying it in the early 20th century and going from bad to worse.

I don't think anyone is really suggesting that. However, there are MORE equal countries in the world than ours. Just do a google search for "countries by income inequality".

And comparing what people are arguing for here with Marxism-Leninism doesn't really make much sense, considering that those revolutions sprang out of war-torn, authoritarian peasant societies.

frisbee

Pross wrote:

Can someone point me in the direction of a country with a 'fair society' i.e. no matter whether you can't work or whatever job you work in you end up with roughly the same income (I'm assuming everyone agrees that those who choose not to work don't deserve parity)? The way some people talk it's a simple process to 'redistribute' wealth so I can never work out why it isn't just the standard model everywhere. I seem to recall a few countries trying it in the early 20th century and going from bad to worse.

Switzerland is holding a referendum at some point in the near future for a universal basic income - £1750/month.

There were various news reports about it several years ago. To hold a referendum in Switzerland you just need 100,000 signatures.

finchy

anonymousblackfg wrote:

where is the motivation to every work harder or attain better qualifications and experience to raise yourself up the earnings curve.

Challenge? Curiosity? Job satisfaction? Why is it that people will go and work in theoretical physics when they could earn more as an estate agent with just A levels?

ballysmate

johnfinch wrote:

anonymousblackfg wrote:

where is the motivation to every work harder or attain better qualifications and experience to raise yourself up the earnings curve.

Challenge? Curiosity? Job satisfaction? Why is it that people will go and work in theoretical physics when they could earn more as an estate agent with just A levels?

Some people have the drive to better themselves/earn more/do the job they love.
Most would be content to sit on their ar5e and collect their money.

frisbee

Ballysmate wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

anonymousblackfg wrote:

where is the motivation to every work harder or attain better qualifications and experience to raise yourself up the earnings curve.

Challenge? Curiosity? Job satisfaction? Why is it that people will go and work in theoretical physics when they could earn more as an estate agent with just A levels?

Some people have the drive to better themselves/earn more/do the job they love.
Most would be content to sit on their ar5e and collect their money.

Sit on their ar5e on their bikes? :P

anonymousblackfg

johnfinch wrote:

anonymousblackfg wrote:

where is the motivation to every work harder or attain better qualifications and experience to raise yourself up the earnings curve.

Challenge? Curiosity? Job satisfaction? Why is it that people will go and work in theoretical physics when they could earn more as an estate agent with just A levels?

Yes, I think Josie Cunningham is very motivated by curiosity.

finchy

I had to look up Josie Cunningham, but if I thought she were a typical member of humanity I'd dedicate my life to germ warfare.

plowmar

Are we talking about the billions paid to rescue the banks here, caught out in the WORLD WIDE slump.

Before that happened the economy and other indicators were all in a good positive direction.

Yes the slump happened during the Labour administration but that doesn't mean they created it.

Relieving the banks of having to use due diligence was a big mistake, started by the Conservatives and continued by Labour. But guess who is now using d.d. when small and medium sized businesses need loans to expand. S&M's are the main drivers of the economy.