Tall stack / Short Reach bikes (was Madone vs S2 thread)

Cyclosis

Hi Folks,

Recently had a Retul bike fit, and came out with a (very) short list of frames that will fit me.

So, budget wise, I've narrowed down to either a Cervelo S2 or a 5 series Madone (H2).

Does anyone have experience of these two bike or compared them? Be interested in your thoughts.

Groupset isn't that important, as I'll be swapping in an Ultergra 11 speed Di2 setup.

Cheers!

lawrences

Surely your body can adapt to a slightly different size frame. Why are you limited to the short list?

t4tomo

Maybe the shop that did the bike fit only sells treks and cervelos?

w00dster

Disclaimer:- I quite like Trek bikes but have never ridden a Cervelo S2 so can't provide a direct comparison.
I ride the Madone 4.7 (2014) model. If I was looking for a new bike now I might have a look at the Emonda rather than a Madone. In a slightly more expensive price range to the OP's budget is the Emonda SL8, thats £3100. I would save up and get this (but that my personal preference after years of good experience with Trek)
Its a H2 Fit, it looks identical to a Madone, I've not checked a geometry chart but I wouldn't be at all surprised if they are the same. Like the other posters I'm surprised you have so few options of bikes that will fit you.
Did the R3 not come up in the list? I would have thought that was a more like for like comparison?
Geometry for both S2 and R3:-
http://www.cervelo.com/media/docs/S2-an ... a355-0.pdf
http://www.sigmasport.co.uk/item/Cervel ... oCCw_w_wcB

Here's a good post on the Emonda....
viewtopic.php?f=40044&t=12978674

And some additional info that may be worth a read...
http://www.pelotonmagazine-digital.com/ ... pg=95#pg95
http://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/ ... eview.html

After all I've said, at the price Sigma has the R3 for, I could well be tempted with that!

Silverknapper

I recently bought an Emonda SL5. Absolutely love it.

My only comment on the post above is that if your swapping in your own group set you could buy the frame on its own or buy a lesser model in the SL range.

Cyclosis

lawrences wrote:

Surely your body can adapt to a slightly different size frame. Why are you limited to the short list?

Sounds like short cut to an injury. My bike should fit me, I shouldn't have to fit to my bike. That's the whole point in going for a proper bike fit before buying a new bike/frame, to get the ideal geometry and then go shopping for a bike that will work around that.

In my case my bike options quickly get whittled down by the fact I have very long legs and a short torso, so I need a stack/reach ration of around 1:1.57. So that, plus my budget, plus the type of riding I do and what I want to accomplish, gets the list pretty short pretty quickly.

That said, if anyone has any other recommendations I'm all ears.

lawrences

Cyclosis wrote:

lawrences wrote:

Surely your body can adapt to a slightly different size frame. Why are you limited to the short list?

Sounds like short cut to an injury. My bike should fit me, I shouldn't have to fit to my bike. That's the whole point in going for a proper bike fit before buying a new bike/frame, to get the ideal geometry and then go shopping for a bike that will work around that.

In my case my bike options quickly get whittled down by the fact I have very long legs and a short torso, so I need a stack/reach ration of around 1:1.57. So that, plus my budget, plus the type of riding I do and what I want to accomplish, gets the list pretty short pretty quickly.

That said, if anyone has any other recommendations I'm all ears.

A bike is made of carbon and metal which are surprisingly inflexible. You are made of flesh which can easily adapt to a new position.

letap73

Cyclosis wrote:

lawrences wrote:

Surely your body can adapt to a slightly different size frame. Why are you limited to the short list?

Sounds like short cut to an injury. My bike should fit me, I shouldn't have to fit to my bike. That's the whole point in going for a proper bike fit before buying a new bike/frame, to get the ideal geometry and then go shopping for a bike that will work around that.

In my case my bike options quickly get whittled down by the fact I have very long legs and a short torso, so I need a stack/reach ration of around 1:1.57. So that, plus my budget, plus the type of riding I do and what I want to accomplish, gets the list pretty short pretty quickly.

That said, if anyone has any other recommendations I'm all ears.

An indication of frame size might help! The stack/reach ratio is different for different sized frames. I pretty certain the stack/reach ratio of the Defy/Synapse/Roubaix is larger than the Madone (better suited to the long legged/short torso).

If it helps, I have achieved the same fit on a suoersix evo and a defy, their stack/reach ratios are certainly on the opposing side of the spectrum.

Cyclosis

letap73 wrote:

An indication of frame size might help! The stack/reach ratio is different for different sized frames. I pretty certain the stack/reach ratio of the Defy/Synapse/Roubaix is larger than the Madone (better suited to the long legged/short torso).

If it helps, I have achieved the same fit on a suoersix evo and a defy, their stack/reach ratios are certainly on the opposing side of the spectrum.

Sure. Well an ideal frame stack/reach for me would be 607/387. So in reality that would mean an absolute maximum reach of 400 otherwise we get into stupidly short stem territory.

I actually already have an Alloy Defy that I commute on, but I've ruled out going for a new one as they've moved to discs. That means it gets very expensive to run Di2 for me (plus, if I'm gonna go disc, i'd like like thru-axles please).

The LBS where I got the fit — despite being a specialized retailer — advised against a Roubaix as it wouldn't suit my riding or aims.

Haven't actually looked at the Synapse. Will take a gander.

Cyclosis

lawrences wrote:

A bike is made of carbon and metal which are surprisingly inflexible. You are made of flesh which can easily adapt to a new position.

Thanks for the input lawrences, but I have to say this is pretty bad advice. The most important thing in looking for a bike is the fit. Cycling is an intensely repetitive and quite unnatural activity, so having an ill fitting bike can lead to some long term injuries (I know this form experience) not to mention reduce your efficiency, power, and enjoyment.

Frames come in many different geos for a reason, and thankfully are replaceable, but bodies are not.

letap73

Synapse - guessing in between the 56 and the 58
Canyon Endurance - guessing between the L and XL
Bianchi Infinito is a possibility.
Focus Izalco ergoride is a possibility.
Scott Solace is a possibility.
Trek Domane is a possibility.
Lapierre Sensium is a possibility.

t4tomo

Cyclosis wrote:

The most important thing in looking for a bike is the fit. Cycling is an intensely repetitive and quite unnatural activity, so having an ill fitting bike can lead to some long term injuries (I know this form experience) not to mention reduce your efficiency, power, and enjoyment.

Frames come in many different geos for a reason, and thankfully are replaceable, but bodies are not.

If youre going to be pedantic, the body is constantly replacing it's cells so most adults bodies are no more than 7-10 years old.

You're placing an awful lot of stock on a Retul bike fit, which are at best questionable and only as good as the person doing it. Two people of exactly same dimensions won't necessarily both be comfortable on the same bike set up. Retul is a colour by numbers fitting process. You're better off just trying a few bikes and once selected having a fit to tweak a few things if it isn't comfortable.

Cyclosis

Silverknapper wrote:

I recently bought an Emonda SL5. Absolutely love it.

My only comment on the post above is that if your swapping in your own group set you could buy the frame on its own or buy a lesser model in the SL range.

Aye, actually looked at the Emonda now that Trek have gutted their Madone and Domane range for some reason. But to be honest, the Madone would suit by style of riding more. I'd prefer to go aero over light-weight, hence my preference for the S2 over the R3 from Cervelo too. I'm never going to be a whippety climber, so I'm playing to my strengths.

Cyclosis

t4tomo wrote:

If youre going to be pedantic, the body is constantly replacing it's cells so most adults bodies are no more than 7-10 years old.

Actually if I'm going to be a pedant I'd point out that this is an old myth. Many of the bodies cells are replaced at a far slower rate than that, plus it slows with age. In fact some cells can never regenerate. Furthermore, some tissues such as knee cartilage cannot be repaired nor healed by the body at all.

Just another reason to guard against overuse and repetitive injuries that prevalent amongst cyclists... and bio-mechanics play a big part in that protection.

meesterbond

Couple of things.

Firstly I'm assuming that the Retul database told you that the Trek and the Cervelo were the only options? If so, then from memory the database it pulls from was pretty small - may have improved significantly since I last looked into it, but that could be a limiting factor.
Secondly, if you think about a bike fitting, you're essentially measuring 3 points in space and then sticking a frame in between them. Whilst the Trek and Cervelo may be a good fit, a few spacers, a layback seatpost or a longer/shorter stem would probably extend the list hugely without creating a poorly handing, ugly bike.

I ride 56cm Cervelos but I bet I could get a perfectly good fit from a 54cm Cervelo or almost any other manufacturer.

Cyclosis

Ok, so here are my options so far, based on my geometry requirements (and yes, I've taken into account the latitude afforded by saddle setback, stem changes and other adjustments etc.):

In contention

Cervelo S2/3: Definite a front runner. Seem great value at them moment, and great geometery for me. An aero frame would be playing to my strengths.

Cervelo R2/3: Similar pricing and same geometry to the S2/3, but maybe a fraction more comfort. I'm never going to be a lightweight climber though, so maybe aero might be a better choice for my style of riding.

Trek Madone H2: Still A favourite, but seem to have stopped selling anything below 7 series... so difficult to test-ride and I'd have to buy a complete bike over-budget and move/sell parts.

Bianchi Infinito: Lovely lovely bike, but the frameset it looking about £400 over budget from LBS. And I'm reluctant to order online when making this kind of investment.

Scott Solace: I've not seen one, or really heard much about them. Geometry does seem to be a good match, but I'd need to be convinced as to why I should choose one over the other options. Not sure what the advantages are.

Ruled out

Trek Domane: They've done away with the 5-series, so it's kinda out of my price range now.

Trek Emonda H2: Only the SL is within my budget, and to be honest, I'm not sure why I should buy this over the R2. It's more expensive and heavier. I'd be better off with a 5.2 Madone I reckon, should I desire a Trek.

Cannondale Synapse: Not considered on so far — probably looking at a hi-mod which I have to say is not to my taste looks wise! And again, I'd erring toward aero frames.

Canyon Endurance: Not internal Di2 compatible

Focus Izalco Ergoride: Perhaps a bit too 'recreation rider' for me. Not seen one anywhere either.

Lapierre Sensium: No trusted dealer near by.

Giant Defy: They've gone all disc now, so looking at a large investment to use my existing Di2.

Specialized Roubaix: Despite being a Specialized retailer, the LBS where I got the fit didn't recommend the Roubaix for me. Not right for my riding style nor aspirations.


Still a lot to ponder, and may come down to the best offer and availability.

Cyclosis

Another one to add would be the Colnago CX Zero Evo.

Geometery looks great, although the previous (2014) version was a bit of a porker. Can't find too much info about the Evo/2015 one. Anyone know anymore?

dj58

Would one of these be of any interest? http://www.storck-bicycle.cc/road-bikes ... ature-2015