23 or 25s for Tyres.

Dandelionclock30

Hi, I'm thinking of getting a road bike next year for some fast training rides,would people recommend 23s for the tyres or 25s?. I'm thinking of perhaps getting one from Ribble and they seem to stick with 23s but most other sportive bikes tend to go with 25s.
Can you tell the difference on the bike? Thanks.

arlowood

There appears to be a trend is towards using 25mm on road bikes now.

Main reason is that with the extra size you can run them at lower pressures and hence give a smoother ride. 23mm tyres generally need to be run at 100psi+ to avoid the possiblity of pinch punctures on the crappy roads that we have to put up with in the UK. These higher pressures equate to a firmer or "harsher" riding experience.

25mm can normally be run as low as 80psi front and 90psi rear which gives a bit of extra cushioning.

I'm sure I've also read someone claiming/arguing that the 25mm tyres have a lower rolling resistance tp 23mm but I'm not sure how accurate that claim is.

northpole

One thing you need to be sure of is that there is sufficient clearance between wheels and frame to allow 25 tyres to be fitted. I wrongly assumed that it was only width which needed to be checked/ was a variable however, I learned to my cost that 25 tyres are considerably taller due to the overall greater volume of air they contain. In my case, the 25 tyre fitted to the front wheel rubbed slightly on the underside of the forks and scratched the paint finish.

So I never really got to find out the benefits of the magic carpet and increased speed offered by changing from 23 to 25 tyres!

Peter

PS Should have said, the tyres concerned were Conti GP4000s

Dandelionclock30

Thanks you 2. I'm thinking about getting a Ribble Sportive but they seem to run just 23s,I dont thik you can fit 25s on their frames.I think theres not enough clearance.

mr_evil

25mm tyres are faster more comfortable, less likely to puncure, have better traction, and last longer. Given all the advantages, I wouldn't buy a frame that doesn't have at least clearance for 25mm tyres.

JayKosta

I've been using 23mm Conti Grand Prix this season and am pleased with them. No punctures so far (about 1000 miles). Grip seems fine, including wet roads.

As said earlier, 23s have to be pumped hard (I run just over 100 lbs in each tire), and I weigh about 175 lbs. This does give more 'road feel'. If your roads are poor and have much loose stone or gravel, then a wider tire and less pressure would be better.

Performance wise, 23s usually weigh less than 25 or 28, and will be more aero.
I don't know about their actually 'rolling resistance' - it depends on the road surface. And the test comparing wider tires usually has all the tires pumped to the same pressure - so the 'softer ride' of wider tires is probably lost.

Wider & heavier tires will probably last more miles, due to more tread, etc., but my 23 Conti GPs seem to be doing fine.

If 'speed and agility' are your goal, then try 23s, if you are more interested in 'comfort and durability' then wider.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

kajjal

To give you an idea I weight about 100kg and ride 23mm tyres with no problems at all with punctures, grip or being shaken up by the road. If the roads were rougher I would go for 25mm or bigger. It is really down to the roads you ride on and personal preference.

gloomyandy

Just to add to the confusion... The trend is also towards wider rims, so your 23 ends up actually more like a 25! All good fun. Oh and don't think that all tyres measure up the same way. I have 23s that measure well over 25, and I have 25s that on the same rim measure less than 25! Oh and supposedly a 25 on a wide aero rim is more aerodynamic than a narrow tyre on a narrow rim (or a wide tyre on a narrow rim), all to do with the overall shape of the tyre/wheel "system". There are pages on the zipp web site (and others) that will tell you more (probably more than you want to know!). This site has an interesting overview:
http://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Implicat ... _2803.html
But next year we will probably being told to buy 19 tyres again!

kajjal

gloomyandy wrote:

Just to add to the confusion... The trend is also towards wider rims, so your 23 ends up actually more like a 25! All good fun. Oh and don't think that all tyres measure up the same way. I have 23s that measure well over 25, and I have 25s that on the same rim measure less than 25! Oh and supposedly a 25 on a wide aero rim is more aerodynamic than a narrow tyre on a narrow rim (or a wide tyre on a narrow rim), all to do with the overall shape of the tyre/wheel "system". There are pages on the zipp web site (and others) that will tell you more (probably more than you want to know!). This site has an interesting overview:
http://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Implicat ... _2803.html
But next year we will probably being told to buy 19 tyres again!

Sometimes it is hard to tell the marketing BS from fact. For most road riders the changes make little real difference. The biggest changes in mountain biking were indexed gears, suspension and disc brakes. Most other changes have been for the sake of marketing and trying to suggest this years bike or equipment is much better than previous years.

stueys

Mr Evil wrote:

25mm tyres are faster more comfortable, less likely to puncure, have better traction, and last longer. Given all the advantages, I wouldn't buy a frame that doesn't have at least clearance for 25mm tyres.

+1, absolutely nothing wrong with 23 but there are plenty of plus points for 25 over 23

Bozman

I bought 25s for a bike last winter, poor clearance on the frame and zero clearance on crud mudguards, 23s cured all of that.

keezx

That's not a problem with the 25's but with your frame.

Bozman

I would say that it's a problem it's just that some frames aren't built for 25mm tyres.

cycleclinic

Mr evil you are making alot of bold claims about 25mm tyres. They are not faster in the real world and they are not more puncture resistant either. They are more comfortable and handling can be improved. I use 23mm, 25mm and 27mm tyres now. All of them go one wide rims and the 23mm tyres become 25mm anyway so that the OP's other option. The wider the tyre the better for me.

A frame not built for 25mm tyres is a problem. My old Sanniono is built for 22mm tyres 23mm open corsa fit just but 23mm GP4000s only fit when it dry that is a problem.

Tyres of one width do actually measure different widths and the over all width does change when fitting to rims of different internal width. A tyre/rim that are the same width is the most aerodymanic which is why I like pairing 23mm tyre with wider rims as you get a wider tyre with a marginal aero gain although I do go wider on some of my bikes too.

mr_evil

thecycleclinic wrote:

Mr evil you are making alot of bold claims about 25mm tyres. They are not faster in the real world and they are not more puncture resistant either...

Plenty of evidence that they are faster in the real world (see the link in my previous post for the best known recent example). I would have hoped that this was no longer controversial given how well publicised it has been over the last few years. Puncture resistance is harder to prove, but ancedotally they are, and theoretically this is because the larger contact patch exerts less pressure on sharp objects (assuming they are used at lower pressure than narrower tyres).

Bozman

Mr Evil wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

Mr evil you are making alot of bold claims about 25mm tyres. They are not faster in the real world and they are not more puncture resistant either...

Plenty of evidence that they are faster in the real world (see the link in my previous post for the best known recent example). I would have hoped that this was no longer controversial given how well publicised it has been over the last few years. Puncture resistance is harder to prove, but ancedotally they are, and theoretically this is because the larger contact patch exerts less pressure on sharp objects (assuming they are used at lower pressure than narrower tyres).

If they are faster, do the peleton use them and are they used in TTs? (I don't know, I'm just asking).

Anonymous

Its funny how a lot of claims are slagged off as marketing BS, but people seem to love 25mm tyres and are convinced they are faster/better.

I think people slag off claims when they do not suit them/their pocket, but embrace them when they do :roll:
You get a lot of 'instant experts' on this subject too.

I'm Sticking with 23mm on all road bikes, but happy with 28mm on the CX.

To the OP, if you want comfort go 25mm and run at lower pressure.
I would try 23mm first just to rule it out as uncomfortable though.

Also, pay more attention to quality of tyre than its width
23mm Continental GP4000's/4 seasons are quite wide (on any given rim) I think, so they may be a good starting point.

cougie

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/05/ ... ire_218011

Bozman

Weren't they trying to link the large number of crashes at this years tours to the use of wider rims and tyres?

jordan_217

Mr Evil wrote:

25mm tyres are faster more comfortable, less likely to puncure, have better traction, and last longer. Given all the advantages, I wouldn't buy a frame that doesn't have at least clearance for 25mm tyres.

Really? I use both, same tyre/tubes just different width. Can't say I've ever noticed the above 'facts'.

krogort

Plenty of article about this, all concur that 25mm have less rolling resistance for the same pressure but are less aero.



http://www.schwalbetires.com/tech_info/ ... resistance
http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/article/b ... ths-29245/
http://www.slowtwitch.com/Products/Thin ... _4026.html

FransJacques

To the OP, all the stuff on here is largely true or people perceive it to be. Which matters a lot.

Most important for you is what attributes you're looking for in these tyres, how heavy are you, what the roads are like around you, and what kind of ride quality you want from your bike. All lead to (slightly) different decisions.

Without knowing your detailed requirements, all that really happens is a debate rather than something more focussed.

What are your thoughts?

Dandelionclock30

Hi, I'm looking for something quickish, comfortable and punture resistant. I'm about 13 stones and the roads round here range from being o.k to having a few potholes. I've got my tourer/cx bike for bridleways/light off road/touring.
The thing is some bikes seem to just take 23s only and I dont want to make the wrong decision and find it uncomfortable and wish I'd got one that takes 25s.I'm looking to really try to improve fitness and do some faster rides than at present. I'm not wishing to race or to use the bike as a commuter/knock around.
Thank You, this forum has been a big help.

cougie

I think its fashion more than function to have frames that can only cope with smaller tyres.

If you looked at the bikes that British Cycling had for the Olympics - they had huge gaps between the forks and tyres - so they must have arrived there after some analysis showed it to be better.

Your CX bike would do everything a road bike could with decent tyres on. (25mm GP4000s - you know it makes sense)

ai_1

Dandelionclock30 wrote:

Hi, I'm looking for something quickish, comfortable and punture resistant. I'm about 13 stones and the roads round here range from being o.k to having a few potholes. I've got my tourer/cx bike for bridleways/light off road/touring.
The thing is some bikes seem to just take 23s only and I dont want to make the wrong decision and find it uncomfortable and wish I'd got one that takes 25s.I'm looking to really try to improve fitness and do some faster rides than at present. I'm not wishing to race or to use the bike as a commuter/knock around.
Thank You, this forum has been a big help.

If you don't know what size you want to use, then leave yourself the option of changing later and avoid bikes that limit you to small tyres. There are plenty frames around that will happily allow the use of 25mm or larger tyres without any compromises. Given you list comfort among your priorities and you're of a relatively average weight rather than a 60kg racer, (like myself in both respects), I'd say a slightly larger tyre is probably the better choice. I ride 25mm Continental 4 Seasons and 25mm Mavic Yksion Pro on my two bikes. I've also ridden 23mm tyres but I see no advantage and they are a little less comfortable IMO. Aerodynamics isn't really worth worrying about. Without taking the rim into account there's not much point discussing the tyre.

Bar Shaker

jordan_217 wrote:

Mr Evil wrote:

25mm tyres are faster more comfortable, less likely to puncure, have better traction, and last longer. Given all the advantages, I wouldn't buy a frame that doesn't have at least clearance for 25mm tyres.

Really? I use both, same tyre/tubes just different width. Can't say I've ever noticed the above 'facts'.

Nor me.

I have 23c and 25c on two different wheel sets and have swapped between them over a weekend. This is completely different, from a testing point of view, to riding one week with one tyre, buying new tyres the next weekend and convincing yourself they are much more comfortable.

Both of my tyre sets are GP4000S II.

Although for most criteria there really is nothing it, I greatly prefer the confidence of cornering on 23c. The rest is too negligible to notice.

The only thing that is not negligible is that my Cruds definitely won't fit over my 25c and these are on my Ksyriums which will soon be known as my winter wheels. If anyone in the Essex area would like to swap my barely used 25c with a set of similar worn 23c (also GP4000S II please) then drop me a PM.

FransJacques

Agree with you guys. With 7-8 pairs of wheels I have ridden all combo over the years: sometimes 2x 23mm or 2x 25mm or a 25 front & 23 rear or vice versa, with most brands and always the haute de gamme (top of the line) tyre (i.e. no Zaffiros, no Ultras nor Luganos nor Lithions etc.). I don't know what I notice, other than Conti Gatorskin's ride like sheit and grip like platform heels on a skating rink. :-)

To the OP, thanks for the details: I'd say it's worth your money buying a nice tyre in a 25mm like an Ultremo, Pro 4, or 4000sII. I've owned all and they're all amazing tyres. The Pro 4 Endurance is great if you really want to avoid flats. But frankly, at 85kgs and on crappy Surrey and Kent and London roads I've been really lucky... If you're not scared of flats or you carry a can of sealant in your pocket, why not go for Vittoria CX or Deda HSTs or Veloflex Paves. With 105ps in them they ride like other tyres @ 85psi.

If your story was you were a cat 3 trying for cat 2 or a top 200 finisher in the Marmotte looking to optimize, then I'd have a different suggestion for you.

Also, call up Ribble and ask them about clearance. There are specific frames like the Canyon Endurace, Dale Synapse, Spesh Roubaix, and Dolan Dual which are designed with 25c + mud guards in mind. There is tons on BR about this already...

ai_1

Bar Shaker wrote:

jordan_217 wrote:

Mr Evil wrote:

25mm tyres are faster more comfortable, less likely to puncure, have better traction, and last longer. Given all the advantages, I wouldn't buy a frame that doesn't have at least clearance for 25mm tyres.

Really? I use both, same tyre/tubes just different width. Can't say I've ever noticed the above 'facts'.

Nor me.

I have 23c and 25c on two different wheel sets and have swapped between them over a weekend. This is completely different, from a testing point of view, to riding one week with one tyre, buying new tyres the next weekend and convincing yourself they are much more comfortable.

Both of my tyre sets are GP4000S II.

Although for most criteria there really is nothing it, I greatly prefer the confidence of cornering on 23c. The rest is too negligible to notice.

The only thing that is not negligible is that my Cruds definitely won't fit over my 25c and these are on my Ksyriums which will soon be known as my winter wheels. If anyone in the Essex area would like to swap my barely used 25c with a set of similar worn 23c (also GP4000S II please) then drop me a PM.

What tyre pressures do you use in each case?
I'm curious why you have more confidence cornering on 23c? Is this down to familiarity, feel or some other reason?

asprilla

I have more confidence cornering on 25mm tyres on 21mm rims @ 90psi than I do on 23mm tyres on 19mm rims @100psi.

cougie

Isnt the profile of a 25mm more 'rounded' than that of a narrow tyre ? They tend to be more 'boxy' ?

ai_1

cougie wrote:

Isnt the profile of a 25mm more 'rounded' than that of a narrow tyre ? They tend to be more 'boxy' ?

I expect that's going to vary more between models rather than sizes. Perhaps some smaller diameters are proportionally higher with the intention of providing a little more volume and pinch puncture resistance without more width?