Friday Thread: Scottish Referendum a UKIPY preview?

meanredspider

The funny thing for me is to look at how most of the rest of the world has changed since the union and yet many Scots still haven't come to terms with it. The mainland UK has remained so incredibly stable over the period of time when the vast majority of the world has changed out of all recognition. It would suggest that it works pretty well. If it ain't broke...

unixnerd

When people in England aren't getting free education and might have to pay for health care it's broken all right. When we think about paying 100 billion to replace Trident and some families rely on food banks it's broken. When Scotland gets Tory governments it never votes for and our oil money is squandered it's broken.

pblakeney

unixnerd wrote:

When people in England aren't getting free education and might have to pay for health care it's broken all right. When we think about paying 100 billion to replace Trident and some families rely on food banks it's broken. When Scotland gets Tory governments it never votes for and our oil money is squandered it's broken.

You forgot the spiralling out of control deficit. Broken.

unixnerd

You forgot the spiralling out of control deficit. Broken.

In fairness to me so did Ed Miliband earlier today :-)

tailwindhome

55% of Scottish voters don't feel able to run their own country.
That's it really.

meanredspider

unixnerd wrote:

When people in England aren't getting free education and might have to pay for health care it's broken all right. When we think about paying 100 billion to replace Trident and some families rely on food banks it's broken. When Scotland gets Tory governments it never votes for and our oil money is squandered it's broken.

I've been over the Trident thing already. It's not £100 billion just to replace it, it's £100 billion over the lifetime of Trident. Scotland's "share" a tiny fraction of Scotland's NHS bill whereas Scotland will disproportionately benefit from the spend on building and maintaining Trident. It's an issue made out of nothing.

Scotland has the SNP government it voted for and the membership of the Union it voted for. You can't have it both ways - which seems to sum up the Nationalist view - we want our cake AND eat it. As for the oil: it's UK oil - Scotland voted for that. And when there's shale gas in the UK (not from Scotland) that will be UK shale gas. Cuts both ways.

There was a vote. The SNP lost. The Yes side lost. You could honour the outcome for a least a week or two.

unixnerd

You could honour the outcome for a least a week or two.

They've already missed one date for their delivery of news on "the Vow". Be interesting to see if they honour the others.

First.Aspect

unixnerd wrote:

When people in England aren't getting free education and might have to pay for health care it's broken all right. When we think about paying 100 billion to replace Trident and some families rely on food banks it's broken. When Scotland gets Tory governments it never votes for and our oil money is squandered it's broken.

You do realise that the cost of all of this stuff is exacly the same both sides of the border, don't you? The only difference is how its paid for. "Tax" at the point of use, or tax everyone regardless of whether they use it. Which is fair really does depend on one's perspective. Regardless of your ultimate opinion, if you think the argument is clear cut, you haven't understood it.

And this talk about not getting the government "we" elected just comes back to "screw the rest of you, we are off" doesn't it? What's so special about this particular part of the UK which means that it alone doesn't get the government it voted for?

There are about 650 constituencies in the UK, and about 350 of these don't have a Tory MP. What distinguishes the Scottish ones from all the others? What about the 40 in Wales, for example - 33 of them are non-Tory. Or the Greater Manchester/Liverpool connurbation? Almost entirely labour. Did they get the government they wanted? Or Northern Ireland?

You keep assuring me that "the Scots" (who I now understand to be the Yes voters, since the new saltire has a little blue "Yes" oval on it) don't think of themselves as special, but that's not really supported by your general attitude, is it? Very simply, the democracy you are part of got the government it voted for. We even had the chance to vote on what voting system should be used.

Throwing the toys out of the pram because you disagree doesn't strike me as very mature politics.

First.Aspect

unixnerd wrote:

You could honour the outcome for a least a week or two.

They've already missed one date for their delivery of news on "the Vow". Be interesting to see if they honour the others.

Aren't you just looking for something to moan about? Its not even been a week yet.

Better to be slow and careful than end up with crap legislation. There's enough of that around already.

tailwindhome

First Aspect wrote:

Or Northern Ireland?

As 2 of the main 3 parties refuse to organise in Northern Ireland we don't get a say (as such) in the governing party.

On a local level the Assembly is organised as a mandatory coalition so no one ever gets the government they want.

First.Aspect

TailWindHome wrote:

First Aspect wrote:

Or Northern Ireland?

As 2 of the main 3 parties refuse to organise in Northern Ireland we don't get a say (as such) in the governing party.

On a local level the Assembly is organised as a mandatory coalition so no one ever gets the government they want.

Have you thought about independence? Or would that result in two more countries?

rjsterry

unixnerd wrote:

When people in England aren't getting free education and might have to pay for health care it's broken all right. When we think about paying 100 billion to replace Trident and some families rely on food banks it's broken. When Scotland gets Tory governments it never votes for and our oil money is squandered it's broken.

I do get a bit sick of the broken Britain rhetoric from whichever side. Have a look around the world and you'll see that while things could be better, we are far from broken.

To address your other points: "Scotland" doesn't vote as a block any more than England or any other part of the UK. Tory share of the vote in Scotland was not that far behind SNP, and LD at the last GE; it's just too distributed to pick up more than one seat under FPTP.

Last time I checked, education is still free up to 18. Free university education is a bit easier to achieve when you only have 15 of them in the country.

tailwindhome

First Aspect wrote:

Have you thought about independence? Or would that result in two more countries?

The concept of an independent Northern Ireland has never gained any traction at all with either side of the community.

ballysmate

As has been stated, a lot of constituencies and voters don't get the government they voted for. The exception being North Korea.
And as regards pledges not being fulfilled yet, it is only a week since the the referendum. The pledges made by the politicians in Westminster may be harder to deliver as they have to satisfy an English electorate that has been poked with a stick for 2 years by Salmond.
An ironic result of the referendum is the 'English only vote for English matters' question.
Surely anyone who voted Yes can see the merit in this argument. After all, it is what you want for Scotland. It would be hypocritical to try to deny anyone the powers that you yourselves enjoy, wouldn't it?

unixnerd

I'd like to see more power devolved to all regions of the UK, local solutions to local problems and local accountability.

The timetable the party leaders gave us was crazy in opinion, but that was what they promised. Cameron's party must be fuming with him. They panicked when they came up here and offered us the moon, it worked. But now they're in a pickle and faced with changing the UK in fundamental ways in a stupidly tight time frame that doesn't allow for proper consultation and reflection. It's not a good corner to be in, but that's what they made for themselves.

YIMan

unixnerd wrote:

When people in England aren't getting free education and might have to pay for health care it's broken all right. When we think about paying 100 billion to replace Trident and some families rely on food banks it's broken. When Scotland gets Tory governments it never votes for and our oil money is squandered it's broken.

Scotland does vote for Tory governments. For example, 413,000 people voted Conservative in the last election and Scotland gave Thatcher 22 seats in 1979.

How is the tax collected from oil companies "your" (by which I presume you mean the people that live in Scotland) money?

YIMan

TailWindHome wrote:

55% of Scottish voters don't feel able to run their own country.
That's it really.

How do you work that out?

tailwindhome

YIMan wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

55% of Scottish voters don't feel able to run their own country.
That's it really.

How do you work that out?

I take the result of the referendum and round it to the nearest whole number.

ballysmate

Milliband has been totally outfoxed. Even his own party members acknowledge that the West Lothian question must be resolved. He realises that even if he won a majority in the UK, he would be a lame duck PM.

YIMan

TailWindHome wrote:

YIMan wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

55% of Scottish voters don't feel able to run their own country.
That's it really.

How do you work that out?

I take the result of the referendum and round it to the nearest whole number.

But not everyone that voted in the referendum was Scottish. And not all Scottish people voted in the referendum.

elbowloh

Ballysmate wrote:

Milliband has been totally outfoxed. Even his own party members acknowledge that the West Lothian question must be resolved. He realises that even if he won a majority in the UK, he would be a lame duck PM.

I'm traditionally a labour voter (although voted Green last time around), but Ed Milliband is a lame duck anyway imo. I just don't see him as a leader and he doesn't inspire any confidence.

elbowloh

YIMan wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

YIMan wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

55% of Scottish voters don't feel able to run their own country.
That's it really.

How do you work that out?

I take the result of the referendum and round it to the nearest whole number.

But not everyone that voted in the referendum was Scottish. And not all Scottish people voted in the referendum.

tbf, he said Scottish Voters. If they don't vote, they're not voters!

If the Yes campaign had won, i'm guessing they would have said that the Scottish voters had voted for independence and the right to run their own country.

ballysmate

elbowloh wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Milliband has been totally outfoxed. Even his own party members acknowledge that the West Lothian question must be resolved. He realises that even if he won a majority in the UK, he would be a lame duck PM.

I'm traditionally a labour voter (although voted Green last time around), but Ed Milliband is a lame duck anyway imo. I just don't see him as a leader and he doesn't inspire any confidence.

I'm a Tory and as such, think he's brilliant.

bompington

TailWindHome wrote:

YIMan wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

55% of Scottish voters don't feel able to run their own country.
That's it really.

How do you work that out?

I take the result of the referendum and round it to the nearest whole number.

OK, so you are indeed trying to insult me and the other 2 million or so people who voted no.
Most of us did not do so because we "don't feel able" to do anything in particular. If I declared the People's Republic of Dundee, I don't doubt that we could find enough competent people in the town to run it after a fashion. But, after thinking about it and assessing the available evidence, I have come to the conclusion that it is better for Dundee to remain part of Scotland.

The Yes campaign has been full of cheap, nasty jibes (traitors, lacking in backbone etc) at No supporters, none of which make any sense at all outside the weird hysteria of the Yes camp. Some of us are just a little tired of it all.

meanredspider

TailWindHome wrote:

55% of Scottish voters don't feel able to run their own country.
That's it really.

55% of Scottish voters feel we should be running the UK not just Scotland - that's what it ACTUALLY says