£700 - £800 wheelset recommendation

jgarpotter

Hi all,

I'm considering increasing my budget upto £800 (preferably all in, but can go slightly over budget) for a wheelset. I currently ride a Scott Foil 15 (from Westbrook) with Shimano RS21's, which I am looking to upgrade. I'm a fairly light rider at 66kg, I do roughly 150 - 200 miles a week. Most of the time it is in Hull (so wind is an issue), but I also ride in Sheffield (when I'm home from University); however, I do plan on going to the alps next summer. I will be using them primarily from training + TT's/tri's (on my scott for now), although I do plan on starting to race crits at the start of next year (I won't be using my SF at the start though).

In Sheffield most of my (solo) rides are around 19mph average (with hills), in Hull they are slightly quicker at 21 - 22mph.

I'm looking for some wheels that have an alloy rim, are lighter than my current wheelset (1850g by themselves) and aren't affected by side winds that much. I'd also like to ride on them for most of the year (when not doing club rides), however, I won't ride on them during Winter, but they would (most likely) be ridden in rain.

Should I be looking at deep rim, or will they be affected by side wind too much? I can buy Shimano Dura Ace C24 wheels for £533 (+ cashback) from PBK, is there any point on spending more money than this? I could also buy some Mavic Cosmic Carbone SLS for £700 - 765 (depending on 2014 or 2015 version). Or should I spend even less and go for CERO AR30 instead? I am, prepared to spend my budget, but I don't want to spend money stupidly.

Cheers,

Josh

letap73

The options listed - I'm not sure would have fantastic longevity when exposed to wet conditions - although I am a huge fan of the CERO wheels.
Since you are based in Sheffield -why not see what these guys can do for you (typical example):
http://www.justridingalong.com/wheels/i ... -rims.html

intheknowcycling.com

Josh,

Good job laying out what you are looking for. Based on that, I'd suggest you consider a mid depth (35-40mm) for a bit of speed/aero but not affected much by cross winds, carbon-alloy for combination of stiffness, rim profile and braking in all weather, 1500g for accelerating in the crits and to work well in the Alps. Would suggest you consider something like the DA C35s for the range of things you've described you'll be doing. The C24s likely to shallow to help you much in your TT/tri riding and the Cosmic SLS a touch too deep for your windy riding and mountain handling. I'm a fan of the C35 and have written it up as the best all-rounder for those who want an aluminum brake track. Responsive, very durable rim, smooth hub, 35mm deep, 21 wide about 1500g. Best pricing I've seen is just under £900 so more than you might want to spend. The others in that mid depth, carbon aluminum range like the Cosmic Carbone 40C, the Easton EA 70 or 90, DT Swiss RC38, 3T Accelero 40 Team, American Classic Carbon 38, perhaps a few others I'm not remembering may be worth considering but I don't think perform as well as the DA 35Cs and most are more expensive. Might go with an Ultegra version C35 or a custom built to save a few bucks but the DA hubs and the whole DA 35C package I think competes favorably with a lot of wheels more and less expensive. Good luck. Steve

northpole

The DA C35 was the first wheelset which sprang to mind as I read your helpful briefing. Exactly like the C24 but with 35mm deep carbon shrouded rims with alloy braking surface and with a reasonable weight strikes a nice balance and should, with a bit of man maths, fit your budget. I also have the C40s which are considerably over budget and which have a full carbon surface including braking face which may be an issue for regular hilly rides and braking demands - I suspect more a confidence thing than durability perceptions. I suspect that C35s will almost perfectly meet your requirements.

Peter

jgarpotter

intheknowcycling.com wrote:

Josh,

Good job laying out what you are looking for. Based on that, I'd suggest you consider a mid depth (35-40mm) for a bit of speed/aero but not affected much by cross winds, carbon-alloy for combination of stiffness, rim profile and braking in all weather, 1500g for accelerating in the crits and to work well in the Alps. Would suggest you consider something like the DA C35s for the range of things you've described you'll be doing. The C24s likely to shallow to help you much in your TT/tri riding and the Cosmic SLS a touch too deep for your windy riding and mountain handling. I'm a fan of the C35 and have written it up as the best all-rounder for those who want an aluminum brake track. Responsive, very durable rim, smooth hub, 35mm deep, 21 wide about 1500g. Best pricing I've seen is just under £900 so more than you might want to spend. The others in that mid depth, carbon aluminum range like the Cosmic Carbone 40C, the Easton EA 70 or 90, DT Swiss RC38, 3T Accelero 40 Team, American Classic Carbon 38, perhaps a few others I'm not remembering may be worth considering but I don't think perform as well as the DA 35Cs and most are more expensive. Might go with an Ultegra version C35 or a custom built to save a few bucks but the DA hubs and the whole DA 35C package I think competes favorably with a lot of wheels more and less expensive. Good luck. Steve

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your reply! I had looked at the C35's, especially with cyclingtips review, however, I wasn't sure on whether or not they are worth the extra £370, (that would go towards a power meter). Although if I do see a large aero benefit from them (in comparison to the C24) it probably is! I can probably stretch my budget to £900 (I'll know definitely by next week) so if they are worth it I can make that purchase!

Cheers

Josh

ugo.santalucia

200 miles a week is 10,000 miles per year. 10,000 miles is typically the lifespan of a set of rims for someone your weight, it can be a lot less if you ride in the wet.
If you buy the Shimano, once the rims are worn, you chuck them in a skip... with that kind of mileage in mind, I would go for something where you can replace the rims when they are worn.
HED Ardennes plus are within your price range, or something similar hand built... they both can be re-rimmed.

Basically for a re-rim job, stay away from Mavic, Shimano, Fulcrum and Campagnolo and you should be OK

Unless the 200 miles a week is a summer figure... I also did 200 miles last week, but it's a bit mor than I do in winter...

jgarpotter

ugo.santalucia wrote:

200 miles a week is 10,000 miles per year. 10,000 miles is typically the lifespan of a set of rims for someone your weight, it can be a lot less if you ride in the wet.
If you buy the Shimano, once the rims are worn, you chuck them in a skip... with that kind of mileage in mind, I would go for something where you can replace the rims when they are worn.
HED Ardennes plus are within your price range, or something similar hand built... they both can be re-rimmed.

Basically for a re-rim job, stay away from Mavic, Shimano, Fulcrum and Campagnolo and you should be OK

Unless the 200 miles a week is a summer figure... I also did 200 miles last week, but it's a bit mor than I do in winter...

I'll admit in Sheffield I don't hit that millage that often (closer to 180), but in Hull I do, especially as I only have 5 hours of lectures a week at University for the next year! I won't, however, be riding them over Winter and I wouldn't use them for group rides (which equates to 50 - 60 miles a week), so a more realistic figure for the year would be 5600 miles or so!

ugo.santalucia

jgarpotter wrote:

especially as I only have 5 hours of lectures a week at University for the next year!

Ridiculous, our students do 18! :shock:

jgarpotter

ugo.santalucia wrote:

jgarpotter wrote:

especially as I only have 5 hours of lectures a week at University for the next year!

Ridiculous, our students do 18! :shock:

It isn't a great service for £9000 a year! Although I am going into my final year which requires a dissertation - which counts as two modules.

jgarpotter

ugo.santalucia wrote:

200 miles a week is 10,000 miles per year. 10,000 miles is typically the lifespan of a set of rims for someone your weight, it can be a lot less if you ride in the wet.
If you buy the Shimano, once the rims are worn, you chuck them in a skip... with that kind of mileage in mind, I would go for something where you can replace the rims when they are worn.
HED Ardennes plus are within your price range, or something similar hand built... they both can be re-rimmed.

Basically for a re-rim job, stay away from Mavic, Shimano, Fulcrum and Campagnolo and you should be OK

Unless the 200 miles a week is a summer figure... I also did 200 miles last week, but it's a bit mor than I do in winter...

Do you know which shop in the UK stocks the HED Ardennes plus? A quick google doesn't bring up anything!

ugo.santalucia

jgarpotter wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

200 miles a week is 10,000 miles per year. 10,000 miles is typically the lifespan of a set of rims for someone your weight, it can be a lot less if you ride in the wet.
If you buy the Shimano, once the rims are worn, you chuck them in a skip... with that kind of mileage in mind, I would go for something where you can replace the rims when they are worn.
HED Ardennes plus are within your price range, or something similar hand built... they both can be re-rimmed.

Basically for a re-rim job, stay away from Mavic, Shimano, Fulcrum and Campagnolo and you should be OK

Unless the 200 miles a week is a summer figure... I also did 200 miles last week, but it's a bit mor than I do in winter...

Do you know which shop in the UK stocks the HED Ardennes plus? A quick google doesn't bring up anything!

You order them from HED UK... they are based in Sheffied (Dore), so you might as well pop in there and have a chat with them. The rims are ace and if you go for the lowest spec ones, they come with J bend spokes, which means easy repairs, fully rebuildable etc. etc.

http://www.hedwheels.com/index.asp#

Otherwise, talk to Just Riding Along, also based at the old rolling mill in Sheffield, they do build HED rims, among others

Can you tell I used to live in Sheffield (Crookes)?

jgarpotter

ugo.santalucia wrote:

jgarpotter wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

200 miles a week is 10,000 miles per year. 10,000 miles is typically the lifespan of a set of rims for someone your weight, it can be a lot less if you ride in the wet.
If you buy the Shimano, once the rims are worn, you chuck them in a skip... with that kind of mileage in mind, I would go for something where you can replace the rims when they are worn.
HED Ardennes plus are within your price range, or something similar hand built... they both can be re-rimmed.

Basically for a re-rim job, stay away from Mavic, Shimano, Fulcrum and Campagnolo and you should be OK

Unless the 200 miles a week is a summer figure... I also did 200 miles last week, but it's a bit mor than I do in winter...

Do you know which shop in the UK stocks the HED Ardennes plus? A quick google doesn't bring up anything!

You order them from HED UK... they are based in Sheffied (Dore), so you might as well pop in there and have a chat with them. The rims are ace and if you go for the lowest spec ones, they come with J bend spokes, which means easy repairs, fully rebuildable etc. etc.

http://www.hedwheels.com/index.asp#

Otherwise, talk to Just Riding Along, also based at the old rolling mill in Sheffield, they do build HED rims, among others

Can you tell I used to live in Sheffield (Crookes)?

Ahhh, so I was being foolish! Thanks for the links, unfortunately I'm going back to Hull today so I won't have time to visit them - however I'll probably give them a call over the following week. Did you live in Sheffield as a student?

ugo.santalucia

jgarpotter wrote:

Ahhh, so I was being foolish! Thanks for the links, unfortunately I'm going back to Hull today so I won't have time to visit them - however I'll probably give them a call over the following week. Did you live in Sheffield as a student?

yep, I did my PhD at Sheffield Uni... happy days!

jgarpotter

ugo.santalucia wrote:

jgarpotter wrote:

Ahhh, so I was being foolish! Thanks for the links, unfortunately I'm going back to Hull today so I won't have time to visit them - however I'll probably give them a call over the following week. Did you live in Sheffield as a student?

yep, I did my PhD at Sheffield Uni... happy days!

I hope you enjoyed the Sheffield hills, and the well kept roads!

On another note, (I appreciate the breaking is carbon and not alloy) would these wheels fit my criteria? I can get them brand new (from PBK) for £850!

http://www.probikekit.co.uk/bicycle-whe ... 96628.html

Cheers

cycleclinic

Renoylds are over priced I think various wheel builders including wheelsmith (probably rhe best know for this sort of thing) build a wheelset for less that performs just as well. It is very easy really also a wheel builder will use J-bend spokes rather than the straight pulls in the Renoylds. Also 10000 miles a year on a renoylds carbon rim will wear the rim out and the wheelset will be trash £850 down the drain.

For that sort of money the HED wheels are not a bad buy but there hubs are a bit run of the mill or ask a wheelbuilder to do you some with the H plus Archetype on high end hubs like Royce which will last forever, it your money though.

letap73

Don't get too obsessed with weight - a wheel set at 1400g will not make you appreciably quicker than being on a well built wheel set at 1700g.

Your average speed is fairly high and this would suggest you are going to be fairly hard on your wheels, therefore it is worth considering the cost of breakages/replacement and servicing - which can be downright extortionate from some manufacturers. Your wheels should be robust enough to handle British weather conditions and British roads.

The Just riding along website has a custom wheel builder. Obviously the two wheel builders UGO and Cycle clinic have websites/blogs which proffer advice on rim/hub/spoke combinations, as well as appearing to have Physics/Engineering backgrounds.

cycleclinic

I concur with the weight thing. My race wheels are 1650g and the other set 1590g lighter would not make me faster unless I drop £5k into it and built a 5kg race bike that would give me a few seconds on the hills over a race still wouldn't help me much though.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

My race wheels are 1650g and the other set 1590g lighter would not make me faster unless ...

You have a 60 grams set of wheels?

The problem is that you are old, fat and slow and there is no denying that... at your age you should be collecting stamps or get a pension scheme, rather than racing in the amateur league...

cycleclinic

I'm not fat (lost a bit of weight recently just by eating better) but slow relative to the people that win definatley. Still there are older racers who are quicker, next year I am eligable for LVRC yeah!

Collecting stamps man that a more expensive hobby than cycling and possibly more obsessive. Pension scheme must get one of those.

jgarpotter

thecycleclinic wrote:

Renoylds are over priced I think various wheel builders including wheelsmith (probably rhe best know for this sort of thing) build a wheelset for less that performs just as well. It is very easy really also a wheel builder will use J-bend spokes rather than the straight pulls in the Renoylds. Also 10000 miles a year on a renoylds carbon rim will wear the rim out and the wheelset will be trash £850 down the drain.

For that sort of money the HED wheels are not a bad buy but there hubs are a bit run of the mill or ask a wheelbuilder to do you some with the H plus Archetype on high end hubs like Royce which will last forever, it your money though.

I appreciate you're a builder as well, but as you mentioned wheelsmith, do you know what their own branded hubs are like? I think the Race 30 that they offer could be what I am after? At least from what I've read on their site (although that could just be marketing 'hype').

nibby

Some options here. I'm thinking of the Matterhorn

http://www.swissside.com/

jgarpotter

nibby wrote:

Some options here. I'm thinking of the Matterhorn

http://www.swissside.com/

Just had a look at them, by the looks of it they had a 20% sale on the Hadron wheelset which ended yesterday, https://www.facebook.com/Swissside/phot ... 57/?type=1, the interesting thing about this particular wheelset is that, according to Swiss Side, they aren't affected by side wind that much - although with a 62.5mm profile I'm not entirely sure I believe that!

ugo.santalucia

nibby wrote:

Some options here. I'm thinking of the Matterhorn

nibby

ha ha... would need decent tyres to get up that

cycleclinic

Regarding the race 30 wheelset and there hubs -I have no direct experience so what I am about to say is based on what I know about the hub design only. Wheelsmith hubs are based on a bitex design (but I think Derek gets the shells machined elsewhere) and will use the same bearing size in the rear (although he may fit high quality bearings) which is small they are unlikely to be an all weather hub. My favourite budget hub is the Miche Primato, and if not on a budget, Campagnolo record, Dura ace and Royce, they may be heavier but the bearings last longer. It depends on the mileage you cover and the conditions you ride in for me that alot of miles in all conditions so a hub like the bitex of Novatec F482 does not cut it for me, fine for many dryier miles though.

The race 30 must use his own rim but at 20mm wide it is narrow. Here are some sums 44 CX-ray spokes (pointless unless they are for racing or TT where you want to save every last watt or two see november cycles test on their website) weight 220g with alloy nipples. There hubs will be around 300g for the pair. That makes 520g leaving 1020g for the rims. that a 510g rim that is V-shaped and narrow (a bit like the velocity Deep V). That is the kind of rim that has been bettered with the H plus archetype. It may be shallower but given it width it allow the tyres to spread out giving a more comfortable ride. Handling is also improved a bit. Aero wise a 20F/24R archetype build with cheaper laser spokes will perform almost identically (if not identically due to the tyre not bulging as much which actually makes a difference). It will also be a lot cheaper and if you used brass nipples and those novatec A291/F482 hubs it would be a similar weight. There are other relaible budget low spoke count hub options though or splurge on high end hubs.

To sum up wheelsmiths description is probably fair overall.

gloomyandy

Looking at his website the Race 30 uses a IRD Cadence Aero rim. It also says he uses brass nipples.

cycleclinic

Thats the Kinlin XR-300 then. I thought it might be that but I was not sure. It is a stiff rim but 13.5m internal width so tyre will come up narrow which is why I have stopped using it plus I have had returns for rebuilds due to brake pulsing issues, I don't like returns, it costs me money. Many happy users of the rim though but the Kinlin XC-279 is a much better rim in every way (a little heavier though) shame the 20H and 24H rims are unavialble currently but IRD or another brand may use the rim. Look for a 23mm wide and 27mm deep rim if you find one you what it is.

Also doing the sums on weight of parts thanks to above info Wheelsmiths hubs are 360g for the pair indicating a steel axle possibly if so thats a good thing or larger bearings than I thought another good thing. Maybe they are more relaible than they might first appear.

djaeggi

I have a very similar wheelset to some of the builds being mooted here: HED Ardennes on PMP hubs 24/28 with cx-rays, and I'm around 70kg. Great wheels, they'd be my one set of wheels if I had to sell all my others; I use them for all manner of riding, mostly Sunday best or racing in wet/windy conditions. From memory, the parts came in around £450, maybe a touch more but this was a couple of years ago now. Worth putting a shout out about the PMP hubs, because these are great, very nicely made and well sealed, come in a range of drillings, and are priced very competitively if sourced direct from Italy (Like Royce but on a budget!). I'm a fan of wide rims, the extra volume means you can drop the pressure and smooth out the ride/increase the grip, without an aero penalty.