Carbon clincher feedback please

twgh

Hey all,

I am currently having a think about a set of 40mm + carbon clinchers which I would use as a general wheelset. I would generally use year round with the exception of (i) hard rain, snow; and (ii) trips to the high mountains. I will use it on my road bike for a few TTs hence the reason for something deeper than 30mm. I have been considering tubular as well but if I went that way I would go handbuilt as I trust OEM tubular rims a lot more. The clinchers I have been looking at are as follows:

1 - Zipp 303
2 - Mavic Cosmic Carbone C40
3 - Reynolds Aero 46/58
4 - Reynolds Assault SLG

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on these, any experience of using them in and around London as a general wheelset.

Many thanks

intheknowcycling.com

After evaluating all-round wheelsets earlier this season, I recommended the Zipp 303 as best performer and Reynolds Assault SLG as best value. Steve

twgh

intheknowcycling.com wrote:

After evaluating all-round wheelsets earlier this season, I recommended the Zipp 303 as best performer and Reynolds Assault SLG as best value. Steve

I saw your review - it was very informative, thank you! I am just wondering if anyone on here has a different point of view.

drlodge

Grill has [good] experience of Reynolds, if it were up to me probably the Reynolds Assault SLGs

ugo.santalucia

intheknowcycling.com wrote:

After evaluating all-round wheelsets earlier this season, I recommended the Zipp 303 as best performer and Reynolds Assault SLG as best value. Steve

We discuss this already and I haven't changed my mind. Your review is flawed, as it doesn't give any weighing to the parameters it pretends to use... the result is that Zipp 303, a wheelset retailing at 2,000 GBP, comes out as a great everyday all round wheelset, which I am afraid is a lot of tosh, or maybe is a valid point for a bunch of executives at Canary Wharf who have lost the concept that one ZERO in the price tag makes a big difference...

My everyday use of the bike involves daily commutes along a tow path and occasionally in the weekend a longer ride on pothole pestered roads in Surrey, many of them littered with gravel and mud in winter and constantly ascending or descending on such crap surfaces... should I get a pair of Zipp 303 for the above?

EDIT: even in the fantasy world of PRO cycling Zipp 303 are nowhere to be seen on hilly stages and races, so they can't be considered "all-round"

Grill

drlodge wrote:

Grill has [good] experience of Reynolds, if it were up to me probably the Reynolds Assault SLGs

I've had a couple sets of Reynolds carbon clinchers. Strong ass wheels.

jordan_217

Grill wrote:

drlodge wrote:

Grill has [good] experience of Reynolds, if it were up to me probably the Reynolds Assault SLGs

I've had a couple sets of Reynolds carbon clinchers. Strong ass wheels.

But you weigh the same as my 7 year old Son

Grill

jordan_217 wrote:

Grill wrote:

drlodge wrote:

Grill has [good] experience of Reynolds, if it were up to me probably the Reynolds Assault SLGs

I've had a couple sets of Reynolds carbon clinchers. Strong ass wheels.

But you weigh the same as my 7 year old Son

12 and a half stone? You've got a hella fat kid.

northpole

I have a set of the C40s and have been very impressed with them, but I'm no expert on aero properties/ benefits etc. They aren't the lightest but in a sense that's part of their attraction for more general use - the implication being that the alloy rim core will make them more robust. (Not sure if there is any merit in that or if Mavic simply shied away from going full carbon). They free wheel pretty much silently - especially when compared to the racket which comes off the CK R45 on my Archetype rear wheel!! I'm going through a patch at the moment where they are screaming like mad under braking - not sure what has brought that about, no signs of any debris in the pad surfaces.

My mindset has not progressed to the point where I would consider the C40s or 303s as general all year round wheels - I'm stuck in the 'Sunday best' mode holding concerns about the impact of flints etc along the Surrey lanes weekend upon weekend - it can be quite shocking the amount of crap on the roads and quite unexpected too. For general use I'll be sticking with my Fulcrum Zeros and Archetypes whose alloy surfaces I am not so precious about.

Peter

jordan_217

Grill wrote:

jordan_217 wrote:

Grill wrote:

drlodge wrote:

Grill has [good] experience of Reynolds, if it were up to me probably the Reynolds Assault SLGs

I've had a couple sets of Reynolds carbon clinchers. Strong ass wheels.

But you weigh the same as my 7 year old Son

12 and a half stone? You've got a hella fat kid.

He's big boned and my little prince deserves a McD's every evening

He's actually about 4 stone wet and is a lanky little monkey.

thegreatdivide

ugo.santalucia wrote:

EDIT: even in the fantasy world of PRO cycling Zipp 303 are nowhere to be seen on hilly stages and races, so they can't be considered "all-round"

Uran and his imaginary wheels.

intheknowcycling.com

ugo.santalucia wrote:

intheknowcycling.com wrote:

After evaluating all-round wheelsets earlier this season, I recommended the Zipp 303 as best performer and Reynolds Assault SLG as best value. Steve

We discuss this already and I haven't changed my mind. Your review is flawed, as it doesn't give any weighing to the parameters it pretends to use... the result is that Zipp 303, a wheelset retailing at 2,000 GBP, comes out as a great everyday all round wheelset, which I am afraid is a lot of tosh, or maybe is a valid point for a bunch of executives at Canary Wharf who have lost the concept that one ZERO in the price tag makes a big difference...

My everyday use of the bike involves daily commutes along a tow path and occasionally in the weekend a longer ride on pothole pestered roads in Surrey, many of them littered with gravel and mud in winter and constantly ascending or descending on such crap surfaces... should I get a pair of Zipp 303 for the above?

EDIT: even in the fantasy world of PRO cycling Zipp 303 are nowhere to be seen on hilly stages and races, so they can't be considered "all-round"

Hello Ugo. Best price on 303 is £1600. Even at that price, I agree it is expensive. I choose best performer based on performance, not on price. I wouldn't commute on this wheel or take it on cyclocross or gravel trails. This is an all-round road wheel not a rough-road/off-road wheel. As to hills, pros can choose from a range of event specific wheels each morning. The average roadie can't. No I wouldn't take the 303 up Alpe D'Huez' 8% average grade for 10km or so, but for the 2-5% grade, <1km long hills most of us will see for maybe 5% to 10% of our time on a 40km ride, the 303 at about 1500kg will be quite good. Not your cup of tea, I understand. But for what OP is asking, I judge it would be best performer while Reynolds would be best value.

ugo.santalucia

intheknowcycling.com wrote:

but for the 2-5% grade, <1km long hills most of us will see for maybe 5% to 10% of our time on a 40km ride, the 303 at about 1500kg will be quite good. Not your cup of tea, I understand. But for what OP is asking, I judge it would be best performer while Reynolds would be best value.

Most folks on here live in the UK and this is not the predominant geography of the island... British road engineering doesn't do 5% outside motorways... climbs are either 10-20% or they're not climbs. Also, the majority of people tend to do a bit more than 40 Km.
Round here I don't think deep full carbon rims can be considered "all-round", simply because for 6 months the roads are surely wet and for the other 6 months they can be wet. We also get the Jet stream flushing wind and gales for a good proportion of the year.
Take Italy or Spain, completely different ball game. Where I come from in Italy it's never windy, it rains heavier but a lot less frequently, roads in winter are dry, surface is better... maybe carbon as an all-round... why not?

ugo.santalucia

thegreatdivide wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

EDIT: even in the fantasy world of PRO cycling Zipp 303 are nowhere to be seen on hilly stages and races, so they can't be considered "all-round"

Uran and his imaginary wheels.

Meanwhile the jersey wearers...

twgh

Nibbles is so bad-ass.

That is grand tour high mountains though - for me UK riding is more akin to flanders (minus the cobbles) or Ardennes week. Rolling terrain with punchy climbs and maybe a few 4-5km ones in places which is where a 303 would be a good all-round wheel set or something 40mm deep.

To me it was interesting that in the Ride 100 Adam Blythe rode Enve 6.7s which are very deep - probably deeper than I would expect a pro to ride round Surrey on.

Grill

twgh wrote:

Nibbles is so bad-ass.

That is grand tour high mountains though - for me UK riding is more akin to flanders (minus the cobbles) or Ardennes week. Rolling terrain with punchy climbs and maybe a few 4-5km ones in places which is where a 303 would be a good all-round wheel set or something 40mm deep.

To me it was interesting that in the Ride 100 Adam Blythe rode Enve 6.7s which are very deep - probably deeper than I would expect a pro to ride round Surrey on.

I have ENVE 6.7 tubs. They're light, stiff and very aero. There are no actual climbs on the ride 100 route so they're the best choice.

twgh

Grill wrote:

twgh wrote:

Nibbles is so bad-ass.

That is grand tour high mountains though - for me UK riding is more akin to flanders (minus the cobbles) or Ardennes week. Rolling terrain with punchy climbs and maybe a few 4-5km ones in places which is where a 303 would be a good all-round wheel set or something 40mm deep.

To me it was interesting that in the Ride 100 Adam Blythe rode Enve 6.7s which are very deep - probably deeper than I would expect a pro to ride round Surrey on.

I have ENVE 6.7 tubs. They're light, stiff and very aero. There are no actual climbs on the ride 100 route so they're the best choice.

Hey hey Mont de Box Hill.....but yes I totally take your point.

Are those your "nice" fair weather wheels? I think tubs are the better call I just need to get comfortable with the gluing process.

Grill

Yup, but only for the Wyndy. I was apprehensive the first time I glued. It's actually really easy and relaxing... Or that could just be the cement fumes. :P

thegreatdivide

ugo.santalucia wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

EDIT: even in the fantasy world of PRO cycling Zipp 303 are nowhere to be seen on hilly stages and races, so they can't be considered "all-round"

Uran and his imaginary wheels.

Meanwhile the jersey wearers...

Apart from Contador, who is now using Roval, you've posted a bunch of photos of riders who's teams do t use Zipp wheels, so I don't get your argument? But in the Zipp era Saxo the rest of the team would regularly be seen using 303's in the mountains.

Grill

Ugo's point is that GC riders will opt for shallower on hilly stages than the 303 (this includes Zipp sponsored teams). Funny how some Zipp riders still use Lightweight Autobahns on TTs...

twgh

Really I thought Martin used 404 front and disc rear?

Grill

I wasn't taking about Martin. Point is pros will ride what they want regardless of sponsor commitments.

twgh

For me coming down to some handbuilts on OEM rims with Miche/Hope hubs or going interest free credit on something branded e.g. 303s, Aero 46 etc

Bar Shaker

The problem with carbons of any depth on the hills, is not the going up but the coming down.

On the way up, though, a tight box section 20/25 will be stiffer than a deep 38 or 50. Climbers need light, stiff wheels.

Back to the original question, of the list given, I would choose the Reynolds Assaults for all round use... 9 months of the year.

Mike Cotty

northpole wrote:

I have a set of the C40s and have been very impressed with them, but I'm no expert on aero properties/ benefits etc. They aren't the lightest but in a sense that's part of their attraction for more general use - the implication being that the alloy rim core will make them more robust. (Not sure if there is any merit in that or if Mavic simply shied away from going full carbon). They free wheel pretty much silently - especially when compared to the racket which comes off the CK R45 on my Archetype rear wheel!! I'm going through a patch at the moment where they are screaming like mad under braking - not sure what has brought that about, no signs of any debris in the pad surfaces.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Glad to hear you've been impressed by the CC40's! In terms of squealing under braking, if you haven't already done so it's best to toe the pads in slightly. Also, regularly check them for contamination (it sounds like you're on it with that!) If the pad surface looks like it's glazed then you can use some super fine sandpaper to gently remove this. Of course, also make sure that the brake track on the rim is clean.

Regarding the internal alu rim there are a number of advantages to this that the engineering bods at Mavic identified during the development process when compared to a full carbon clincher rim. Using a lightweight alu insert like this increases structural resistance against tyre pressure, offers better heat dissipation under continuous braking, provides higher impact resistance and ensures that the brake track is perfectly aligned for consistent braking..........so you can be safe in the knowledge that there's definitely some science behind it! ;-)

Ride safe.

Mike

northpole

Thanks for the feedback Mike - will have a closer look at the pads tomorrow.

Peter

thegreatdivide

Grill wrote:

Ugo's point is that GC riders will opt for shallower on hilly stages than the 303 (this includes Zipp sponsored teams). Funny how some Zipp riders still use Lightweight Autobahns on TTs...

This is just not the case! Valverde has been on the new Boras from the start of the Vuelta. J Rod is on Mavic 40's. Dan Martin is on 40's. Uran is on 303's. Just flick through any photo set on the mountain stages in Cycling News and you'll see loads of climbers on 40mm or there about rims.

Grill

thegreatdivide wrote:

Grill wrote:

Ugo's point is that GC riders will opt for shallower on hilly stages than the 303 (this includes Zipp sponsored teams). Funny how some Zipp riders still use Lightweight Autobahns on TTs...

This is just not the case! Valverde has been on the new Boras from the start of the Vuelta. J Rod is on Mavic 40's. Dan Martin is on 40's. Uran is on 303's. Just flick through any photo set on the mountain stages in Cycling News and you'll see loads of climbers on 40mm or there about rims.

A lot of this has to do with minimum weight. Uran consistently rode C24's with Sky. Also, 40mm is hardly deep section. Funny how none of those mentioned are actually in contention for the GC.

cycleclinic

IF you are going to go with carbon then get wide ones the aero benefits are marginaly improved (or at least they should be) and you get all the other benefits of wide rims. Pads can make a big difference to how they brake in the wet but it does depend on the rim as well. Decents that are long and flowing should not pose a problem unless you ride the brakes alot it is the long twisty decents where you have to brake alot becuase the road is rough or there is lots of traffic - simply decents that get alloy rims hot will be a problem for carbon any full carbon rim.

U-shaped rims don't get blown around alot in winds. I have taken mine out in very windy races and it was all very controlable or maybe it hurt too much for me notice getting blown about not sure now.

The reason why GC boys go up mountians with 40mm deep wheels is they are fast enough for it to make a difference (every marginal gains really counts for them) and coming down the aero gains help again. To acheieve minium weight their are other ways like lead weights in the frame, special cranksets e.t.c.

I kind of agree with ugo on climbs. Italy has proper climbs, we have lumps in the road big lumps in some parts some very big but I have had to redine climbs after riding in Italy. In fact now anything less than 10% I squint and call it flat.

gloomyandy

Was looking at the wheels used in the TOB over the last few days. They pretty much all seemed to be on 40/50mm deep rims. But then again thy have been going up some of those hills as fast as I ride a 10 mile TT!

ugo.santalucia

Here some more from China

http://www.carbonality.com/rims-1/700c-road-rims.html

I have a set of the shallow ones to build, sourced by a guy who knows his way around China... they seem OK