Is carbon fibre frame just a gimmick?

kammybear

I've been look at a Cube 2015 peloton and an agree. £200 cost difference, the pel has ultegra mechs while the agree is full 105...weight difference between the two is according to Cube 250g.... 8.5kg vs 8.75kg... I would have expected at least 0.5-1kg for frame alone?

So now I'm thinking I should just upgrade my 2014 allez with chinese carbon wheels, carbon seat post, forks and bars and be done with it? I'd get most of the carbon benefits?

sloppyschleckonds

What are you hoping to achieve?

ai_1

It depends what you want.
Yes, the "carbon is automatically better than aluminium" idea is nonsense but a good carbon frame can be significantly "better" than a good alloy frame in a few ways.
However, if you're looking at say <€1800 bikes I think there's room to consider the advantages of a good alloy frame with good components, versus a poor carbon frame with similar components or a decent carbon frame with much lower spec components.

kammybear

The cube carbon frame does look very basic and boring.

I had chinese carbon bits on my old bike. No problems at all, most of it is largely a myth, and yes, all carbon can break, even branded stuff.

Would a Wilier Iozard carbon be considered poor as well? This is quickly turning into a buyers advice thread...

But yeah, I'm beginning to see that low level carbon stuff is just for show? I've just been on my first 34 mile ride and my hands were buzzing after due to the vibrations! My Allez is fully aluminium including the fork

ai_1

kammybear wrote:

The cube carbon frame does look very basic and boring.

I had chinese carbon bits on my old bike. No problems at all, most of it is largely a myth, and yes, all carbon can break, even branded stuff.

Would a Wilier Iozard carbon be considered poor as well? This is quickly turning into a buyers advice thread...

But yeah, I'm beginning to see that low level carbon stuff is just for show? I've just been on my first 34 mile ride and my hands were buzzing after due to the vibrations! My Allez is fully aluminium including the fork

The frame is not the only or even the most important factor in determining how much vibration gets through to you.
I would say tyre type, size and pressure are far more important than the material your frame is made of. Seatpost, saddle and bar tape are probably as or more important than the frame too. Getting your tyres and bar tape right is easy and relatively low cost, so do that first before even considering frame material.

Properly produced carbon fibre can fail but it will generally fail predictably.
If you buy a "fake" bike like the fake Pinerello Dogmas floating around. Who's to say the carbon fibre isn't fake too or that the lay-up bears any resemblance to a sensible structural solution. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Chinese frames are fine. Chinese frames of dubious origin, design and QC are not.

P.S.
In some hobby industries at one time there was a practice of selling glass fibre dyed black labelled as carbon fibre. Don't assume carbon fibre is all the same. It might be, it might not.

Anonymous

Yeah, carbon is a gimmick, please never buy any decent carbon stuff :roll:

The Agree is cheap (i.e. its pretty much the same price as the peloton if its only £200 more with a cheaper group set), what exactly do you expect? The fact it's a different frame material to make it into a super bike?
Get real, you have to pay for quality IME.
Things do not get light until they cost a fair bit more unfortunately.

Do not mean to be rude, but if you got your Allez new at list price you paid over the odds for a poorly specced bike just to have the words 'Specialized' on it, so to come on here bad mouthing all carbon (thread title) just because the cheap carbon does not give you the properties that you expect from it is a bit off.

The word 'Specialized' is far more of a Gimmick than cheap carbon. Cheap carbon is just cheap carbon.

To then say that you are going to tart up a mediocre budget frame with fake bits just seems bizarre.

There is no magic answer. The only solution to what you seem to want is to get a much better quality/specced carbon bike.

DavidJB

Yeah weight is the only metric you should use when choosing a bike

slowbike

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

What are you hoping to achieve?

Exactly ...

I can't say I knew what I was hoping to achieve when I bought my Tarmac to replace my Allez. Sure it felt nicer, looked nicer and I knew it was full carbon fibre frame. But on top of that, the Tarmac had 105 parts opposed to the 2300 on my Allez.
I never sold my Allez, I use it as a TT bike now (with clipon aerobars and bar end shifters) consequently I go faster on that than I do the Tarmac ...
I'm going to replace the wheels on the Allez - they've been replaced once with some Fulcrums, but I'd like some deep sections for TTing, it's not going to be "cheap chinese" though ... it may be cheap, it might also be good value, but I'm not taking the chance - I'd rather buy a set of reputable wheels for double the price and have confidence in their construction.

DavidJB

I'm not convinced this isn't a troll post. OP don't bother with deep sections I'm 99% sure you won't be fast enough for it to make a difference.

simon_masterson

Carbon fibre is a material. It's not magic. Putting everything you can find that is made from it on your bike isn't going to transform it. Carbon is just one material used to make frames from, and to be perfectly honest the fact that it is currently used in many high end frames has a lot to do with its current popularity. All of the materials in use have their properties, but anyone that makes generalisations along the lines of 'aluminium bikes are uncomfortable/carbon bikes are not/steel bikes are heavy' is ignorant.

And as much as weight is a ridiculous measure of how good a bike is, you can build a sub-7kg bike from steel, aluminium, titanium or carbon fibre.

bompington

Simon Masterson wrote:

Carbon fibre is a material. It's not magic. Putting everything you can find that is made from it on your bike isn't going to transform it. Carbon is just one material used to make frames from, and to be perfectly honest the fact that it is currently used in many high end frames has a lot to do with its current popularity. All of the materials in use have their properties, but anyone that makes generalisations along the lines of 'aluminium bikes are uncomfortable/carbon bikes are not/steel bikes are heavy' is ignorant.

And as much as weight is a ridiculous measure of how good a bike is, you can build a sub-7kg bike from steel, aluminium, titanium or carbon fibre.

This is all very obvious, but the fact is that carbon fibre has far greater strength and rigidity than steel, weight for weight.
Personally I'm looking forward to carbon nanotube bikes, as that's far, far stronger. Though I'm not sure about the looks of a bike with a frame made from tubes 1 billionth of a metre thick, or am I getting something wrong?

ai_1

bompington wrote:

Simon Masterson wrote:

Carbon fibre is a material. It's not magic. Putting everything you can find that is made from it on your bike isn't going to transform it. Carbon is just one material used to make frames from, and to be perfectly honest the fact that it is currently used in many high end frames has a lot to do with its current popularity. All of the materials in use have their properties, but anyone that makes generalisations along the lines of 'aluminium bikes are uncomfortable/carbon bikes are not/steel bikes are heavy' is ignorant.

And as much as weight is a ridiculous measure of how good a bike is, you can build a sub-7kg bike from steel, aluminium, titanium or carbon fibre.

This is all very obvious, but the fact is that carbon fibre has far greater strength and rigidity than steel, weight for weight.
Personally I'm looking forward to carbon nanotube bikes, as that's far, far stronger. Though I'm not sure about the looks of a bike with a frame made from tubes 1 billionth of a metre thick, or am I getting something wrong?

You're getting something wrong.

The main advantage of carbon is not it's tensile strength/weight ratio. It's the fact that you can manipulate structures by orienting the fibres to provide the properties desired. I think most people don't understand what lay-up means. If you built a bike with all the fibres running circumferentially in the tubes, it wouldn't be much of a bike and wouldn't last long.

Carbon nanotubes offer lots of exciting structural possibilities but you're still going to need to know how to use them. You're not just going to have long and ridiculously skinny structures. Go too far and buckling will be an issue.

ForumNewbie

I have a carbon Cube Agree Race with full Ultegra components. The bike is certainly not heavy at 7.9kg but the only downside is the transmission is noisy compared to my aluminium hybrid (sora components) and my steel Audax bike (105). When I pointed this out when I bought the bike, the bike shop guy claimed carbon frames were noisier, which I didn't think could be true, but maybe it is a poor quality carbon frame causing the noise?

ai_1

ForumNewbie wrote:

I have a carbon Cube Agree Race with full Ultegra components. The bike is certainly not heavy at 7.9kg but the only downside is the transmission is noisy compared to my aluminium hybrid (sora components) and my steel Audax bike (105). When I pointed this out when I bought the bike, the bike shop guy claimed carbon frames were noisier, which I didn't think could be true, but maybe it is a poor quality carbon frame causing the noise?

Carbon frames may well be noisier. More rigid, often larger volume tubes. Makes a better soundbox! A noisier frame doesn't mean a poorer quality frame. In fact the opposite is more likely.

diplodicus

Ai_1 wrote:

ForumNewbie wrote:

I have a carbon Cube Agree Race with full Ultegra components. The bike is certainly not heavy at 7.9kg but the only downside is the transmission is noisy compared to my aluminium hybrid (sora components) and my steel Audax bike (105). When I pointed this out when I bought the bike, the bike shop guy claimed carbon frames were noisier, which I didn't think could be true, but maybe it is a poor quality carbon frame causing the noise?

Carbon frames may well be noisier. More rigid, often larger volume tubes. Makes a better soundbox! A noisier frame doesn't mean a poorer quality frame. In fact the opposite is more likely.

One of the riders in our club has a carbon tube and lugged Look and it makes a fantastic sound every gear change.

MisterMuncher

Bigger and thinner tubes of any material will do this. A CAAD10 or Ultimate Al will "pop" nicely on a gear change.

chris_bass

I have a Cube Agree and really like it, it even survived being hit by a car!

You arent really comparing like with like though, it one has ultegra this is lighter than 105, the wheels will probably be lighter and the finishing kit will be different too.

kammybear

DavidJB wrote:

I'm not convinced this isn't a troll post. OP don't bother with deep sections I'm 99% sure you won't be fast enough for it to make a difference.

Not a troll post! I'm a n00b

Basically, low end carbon is a gimmick but mid-top end is the real deal?

I'm tempted by a Specialized Venge 105 on sale, 10r carbon must be top/mid level?

simon_masterson

Why does it need to be a gimmick? It's a material. A more expensive carbon frame will probably be better than a cheaper one; likewise aluminium, steel, titanium and anything else you can make bikes from.

Bozman

My opinion on the strength of carbon fibre frames went up last weekend.
Last Saturday I got hit by a car, the force knocked my rear wheel out of the frame, pushed my bars round 90 degrees and moved the shifters and saddle right out of position, a new headlight and bonnet are required for the car(£1200), but thankfully I got away with bruising of the body and ego.
The frame and bars are absolutely fine and there isn't even a mark on either, the bike has been stripped, reassembled and given a hard test run and thankfully all is ok. Probably just lucky.

Simon_Rhino

http://youtu.be/xlJjbnrdjjw

KnightOfTheLongTights

Simon Masterson wrote:

Why does it need to be a gimmick? It's a material. A more expensive carbon frame will probably be better than a cheaper one; likewise aluminium, steel, titanium and anything else you can make bikes from.

I think he just means that carbon tends to be marketed (and by some seen) as inherently superior; whereas at lower price points people here have been advising him that you're probably better off with a good alu or steel frame (than a cheap carbon one).

Walls82

I went from a specialized allez to a second hand Felt Z2 and didn't notice a gargantuan difference, considering if I bought the Z2 new it would cost about 4k-6k.

Obviously carbon is seen as superior and the people selling bikes want to capitalise on this. There are different types of fibre and different construction techniques which is what your paying for in most cases. Its good that your not getting blinded by the bling of carbon and thinking it through before buying!

Also if your even just a tiny bit overweight its a lot cheaper to lose weight off your body than it is off a bike!

stevenb

I love these threads....everyone getting their pennyworth of input.
I would say to the OP, do some research.
Either of the aforementioned bikes are at least half decent. Both will probably ride nicely if set up well and as long as you enjoy riding it then thats all that matters.
If you were talking about the other end of the price spectrum where costs are huge then of course, carbon will feature on all of the top end bikes mixed with the odd titanium and custom built steel bikes.

Just buy what you can afford and enjoy it.

Daz555

Bozman wrote:

My opinion on the strength of carbon fibre frames went up last weekend.
Last Saturday I got hit by a car, the force knocked my rear wheel out of the frame, pushed my bars round 90 degrees and moved the shifters and saddle right out of position, a new headlight and bonnet are required for the car(£1200), but thankfully I got away with bruising of the body and ego.
The frame and bars are absolutely fine and there isn't even a mark on either, the bike has been stripped, reassembled and given a hard test run and thankfully all is ok. Probably just lucky.

This is a great illustration of carbon when done properly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xreZdUBqpJs

Jules Winnfield

Simon_Rhino wrote:

http://youtu.be/xlJjbnrdjjw

Ha ha ha, that sounds like some of the moronic threads you get on here from time to time.

Anonymous

Walls82 wrote:

I went from a specialized allez to a second hand Felt Z2 and didn't notice a gargantuan difference, considering if I bought the Z2 new it would cost about 4k-6k.

Obviously carbon is seen as superior and the people selling bikes want to capitalise on this. There are different types of fibre and different construction techniques which is what your paying for in most cases. Its good that your not getting blinded by the bling of carbon and thinking it through before buying!

Also if your even just a tiny bit overweight its a lot cheaper to lose weight off your body than it is off a bike!

Yawn smiley re. body weight. Its a crock! :roll:
I could lose 6lb in a couple of weeks, but my 22 lb bike ain't gonna feel like my 16 lb one :roll:

Losing bodyweight will certainly make a difference but its not really linked to bike weight in the way instant experts seem to love saying IMO.

Felt Z2 must be crap and seriously overpriced if you did not notice a worthwhile difference.
Either that or you are expecting too much.

Guessing you have sold the Felt and got your money back then?

Monty Dog

madasahattersley wrote:

V. Interesting. Only problem is there are still lots of scenarios when carbon would break and alu wouldn't or would just dent but be rideable. I still think good carbon is still the best material for 80% of riders.

Care to try this with your aluminium frame and share the results?

http://www.frequency.com/video/cannonda ... r/38142622

nicktheluddite

What Sheldon says has a reasonable amount of truth
http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html

Walls82

I think I might be taking the bait but anyway, from my personal experience losing 6kg (I'm about 66kg now)felt like it made much more of a difference than upgrading my bike.

I wrote gargantuan difference not worthwhile, its certainly a lot nicer to ride and but thats equally group set rather than weight of the bike.

My z2 is better looking than the allez and that obviously makes it go really fast so i still have it - for now

mattrixdesign2

Carbon Fibre is not a gimmick, its an option. Its not required.

It won't make you faster, or climb hills quicker... infact one of the joys of "cheap" alu is keeping up and/or going past the carbon bikes