Racers, what do you want in a training wheel?

intheknowcycling.com

Anyone still using separate training and racing wheels? What do want in a training wheel? Which training wheels support your racing objectives best?

MisterMuncher

Good hubs, laced to solid rims with plenty of spokes. It's not rocket surgery.

drlodge

MisterMuncher wrote:

Good hubs, laced to solid rims with plenty of spokes. It's not rocket surgery.

+1 For training wheels you want wheels that go round and round and round, and don't break. Simples.

MisterMuncher

There's a reason why Ultegra hubs and Open Pros in 32-hole sell very well.

intheknowcycling.com

Right, so really durable hubs, stiff and bombproof wheels. What else matters?

napoleond

Cheap. Strong. Easily repairable.

drlodge

You want Harry Rowland type wheels for training: boring but bombproof - 105 or Ultegra hubs, 32 spokes and Open Pro like rims (Excellights or Archetype as alternatives).

Cheap? No point paying a fortune for sure...£300 max for the pair
Strong? Yep
Easily repairable? Definately
Light? Weight doesn't matter, actually you want heavy wheels as they'll make you fitter ;-)

These critieria would point you to a set of hand built wheels, so we're back to Harry ;-) Compare to my wheels:
(a) Open pro rims, 32 spokes, durace hubs
(b) Excellight rims, 32 spokes, campag record hubs

You get the idea...both built by Harry!

For today's wheel I'd use an Archetype rim as its wider, no point asking Harry though as he won't get them in...ask Ugo instead.

MisterMuncher

Ultegra Hubs, 32 Plain Spokes, TB14 Rims. 2.2 Kg but never going to leave me stranded.

mrushton

Harry will tell you that the Archetype is too expensive for what it is (a rim made in China) and he has had issues with the suppliers. Like to try them myself but Excellight/Open Pro or Race 24 from Wheelsmith do the job atm

ugo.santalucia

mrushton wrote:

Harry will tell you that the Archetype is too expensive for what it is (a rim made in China) and he has had issues with the suppliers.

It's more the latter.

Speaking of expensive rims... I did repair a Mavic R SYS recently... I am not aware of the price of the rim, the wheelset has been recently discontinued, but I seem to recall the RRP was around a grand, give or take, so I expect the spare rim to be 200 quid or so. Well, that rim was as average as a rim can be. There was nothing special about it that made it stand out from a Mavic CXP 22, to name the bottom of their range and laced with 16 spokes gave the characteristic pulse of a crap rim laced with too few spokes (if you have a micrometer gauge you can watch it flickering while the wheel spins.
Moral is I guess ten quid extra for a rim of consistently exceptional quality made in China in the grand scheme of things is a small extra price to pay when they easily rip you off hundreds for stuff that is much much worse.

twgh

I have Archetypes laced to DA9000 and they are amazing wheels (Edit: built by UGO). The wider rims make a massive difference IMO.

They are perhaps a little more than "training" wheels given the hubs though - you could use Ultegra instead which would come in at sub £300.

MisterMuncher

Out of interest, what kind of weight are your da/archetype coming in at? I've been idly considering some nice day wheels.

ugo.santalucia

MisterMuncher wrote:

Out of interest, what kind of weight are your da/archetype coming in at? I've been idly considering some nice day wheels.

Depends on spoke count/choice... 24/28 with Dt revs front and Dt comp rear is 1650 or so... 32/32 with Dt comp all round is 1850

MisterMuncher

Thanks Ugo. Was kind of hoping for a bit less, but food for thought, certainly. I'm trying to get my CAAD10 down to UCI weight without getting into silly "boutique" gear or a great deal of carbon. Purely for the craic and the challenge, I'm under no illusions it'll drastically improve performance.

DeVlaeminck

I've not been cycling forever but even in the dozen or so years I've been into it I've seen it go from people ridiculed for training on a set of ksyriums to it being commonplace for people to ride a club run let alone a chaingang on deep section carbons. For that reason what I would consider a training wheel is probably a bit better than I would have 10 years ago. I currently use Fulcrum CX which are an alloy semi deep section wheel with apparently better seals on the hubs - once I would have said that was quite a nice wheel to train on but now I reckon the majority of amateur racers are training on something better than those.

robbo2011

MisterMuncher wrote:

Thanks Ugo. Was kind of hoping for a bit less, but food for thought, certainly. I'm trying to get my CAAD10 down to UCI weight without getting into silly "boutique" gear or a great deal of carbon. Purely for the craic and the challenge, I'm under no illusions it'll drastically improve performance.

Why not try those Tune wheelsets available from Wiggle? Handmade style wheels but with a weight that is much more appealing (to me) than the heavier wheels discussed above. Perhaps too expensive for training wheels though.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/black-series-by ... -wheelset/

ugo.santalucia

MisterMuncher wrote:

Thanks Ugo. Was kind of hoping for a bit less, but food for thought, certainly. I'm trying to get my CAAD10 down to UCI weight without getting into silly "boutique" gear or a great deal of carbon. Purely for the craic and the challenge, I'm under no illusions it'll drastically improve performance.

The problem is that you are comparing them against the likes of Shimano RS 81 or the DA CL 24, which is inappropriate. Breaking it down, they save weight by having 36 spokes against 52 for a set. 16 spokes weigh 100 grams or more and here's your 1500 grams wheels. I have built Archetype 20/24 with CX ray spokes and light hubs and you get down to 1450 or thereabout, but they are no better than the above mentioned Shimano as far as training wheels go.

Ultimately it's vanity, if you look at the need for ultralight... well, Edd is on the above mentioned 24/28 and is 6 seconds down on Ten Dam in the Strava Challenge... you can argue with a set of Zipp 202 tubulars he would beat Ten Dam, but I very much doubt... 500 grams only give you 2-3 Watts back...

http://www.strava.com/challenges/BoxHill14

MisterMuncher

I'm not so much after training wheels as such. I'm fairly well sorted with my current build. These would be for nice day pleasure and a bit of racing. Living in the mountains now, is welcome the psychological boost.

intheknowcycling.com

DeVlaeminck wrote:

I've not been cycling forever but even in the dozen or so years I've been into it I've seen it go from people ridiculed for training on a set of ksyriums to it being commonplace for people to ride a club run let alone a chaingang on deep section carbons. For that reason what I would consider a training wheel is probably a bit better than I would have 10 years ago. I currently use Fulcrum CX which are an alloy semi deep section wheel with apparently better seals on the hubs - once I would have said that was quite a nice wheel to train on but now I reckon the majority of amateur racers are training on something better than those.

Interesting perspective. Any other racers training on or seeing other racers train on factory built wheels like what DeVlaeminck is talking about here? Which ones? Why do you think they are going this direction? Thanks, Steve

Crozza

ugo.santalucia wrote:

mrushton wrote:

Harry will tell you that the Archetype is too expensive for what it is (a rim made in China) and he has had issues with the suppliers.

It's more the latter.

Speaking of expensive rims... I did repair a Mavic R SYS recently... I am not aware of the price of the rim, the wheelset has been recently discontinued, but I seem to recall the RRP was around a grand, give or take, so I expect the spare rim to be 200 quid or so.

when I crashed mine, the bill for a new rim, 5 new zicral spokes and a re-build at the factory was £430

cycleclinic

24F/28R archetype with DA hub and revs front comps rear and brass nipples is 1680g on my scales. The rims are 485g average I find not 470g which is what ugo maybe using.

If you really want to gram pich then the more expensive Pacenti SL23 will get you a sub 1600g wheelet but for a training wheel there is not better rim than the archetype it is cheap enough to replace when worn or crash damged and they hardly ever seem to crack. 28h archetype in black are hard to come by though at the moment. BLB/big mama say 6 weeks assuming no delay (production issues). Also as for made in china, HED rims are made in china and anyone who work with the achtype will know it is far better made (rounder) and a more consitant weight than the Mavic Open Pro or the ambrosio excellight.

I have training bikes with 32 spoke count wheels on ambrosio nemesis rims or archetypes, for racing I have low spoke count carbon clinchers but I have found I have used the carbon wheels for training too so who am I to talk. I built the archetype/chorus hub wheelset and the nemesis/DA wheelset for training purpose as they will do many more miles before spokes break but you know vanity tends to win with me anyway and I use my vanity wheels all the time against my better judgement. Winters coming though and the race bike is being stripped for repainting so back to the proper training wheels soon. I have many other wheelset too 32F/32R ambrosio excellight on miche hubs, 28 spoke DT Swiss RR415 rims (worn out now) on miche hubs must rebuild these and a few others. The point is for me racing wheels are low spoke count, fine to use them regulalrly but don't expect to get very high miles from them as you may but you may not. All my other wheels are higher spoke count I am 80kg by the way presently now I have stopped filling my cake hole with cake all day long. I am not very good at racing either but learning how not to do it every time I race.

As you pointed out it is easy to build sub 1500g wheels, for example Pacenti SL23 rims on White industries T11 hubs but while these are good wheels would I ride them through the winter crap- no I wouldn't so are they training wheels probably not.

DT Swiss are releasing a new rim the R460 24H, 28H and 32H drilling, 18mm internal width, cheap (£40) and 23mm deep. Weight 460g sounds kind of perfect to me. I will have to persuade madison to buy the 24H rim like I had to when they first brought in the RR440, which is another good rim a bit pricey though.

iron-clover

Like the others have said, I like a 'fit and forget' wheel. I personally use Shimano R-501 wheels for training- at £60 per pair it's cheap enough to throw away after their rims are knackered.

My current pair of 'racing wheels' are Hope Mono RS hubs and Mavic Open Pro rims with affordable double butted steel spokes (I forget which brand/ make) which will eventually be the mile eating wheels for my nice bike when I eventually buy it. Every part of the wheels are easily replaced when they wear out, and changing the rims when they go will be fairly cheap with the help of a wheel building mate (although I should really learn myself :roll: )

ugo.santalucia

DeVlaeminck wrote:

I've not been cycling forever but even in the dozen or so years I've been into it I've seen it go from people ridiculed for training on a set of ksyriums to it being commonplace for people to ride a club run let alone a chaingang on deep section carbons. For that reason what I would consider a training wheel is probably a bit better than I would have 10 years ago. I currently use Fulcrum CX which are an alloy semi deep section wheel with apparently better seals on the hubs - once I would have said that was quite a nice wheel to train on but now I reckon the majority of amateur racers are training on something better than those.

good post and very true! I don't know if that's down to more disposable income, the wide spread of carbon, which makes everything which is not kind of second best or the fact that indoor trainers are so advanced that many prefer to train indoor if the weather is awful, hence making inexpensive and/or bulletproof wheelsets unnecessary. Certainly I have to go back well over 12 months since the last time I built an inexpensive rim like Ambrosio Excursion

brettjmcc

thecycleclinic wrote:

24F/28R archetype with DA hub and revs front comps rear and brass nipples is 1680g on my scales. The rims are 485g average I find not 470g which is what ugo maybe using.

I think I measure my friend's when I did his at 1620 with CX-Rays. He was kind enough to let me practice on his wheels

thecycleclinic wrote:

As you pointed out it is easy to build sub 1500g wheels, for example Pacenti SL23 rims on White industries T11 hubs

Just out of interest what spokes would you use to get that please? I am planning to get some T11s, as I'd like to build a new set of best wheels for myself and am thinking T11s on the Archetypes

fish156

drlodge wrote:

You want Harry Rowland type wheels for training: boring but bombproof - ...

Why the hell would you want boring wheels to do your training on? By definition you're going to be spending a lot of hours riding on them so you want something that has life. Strong yes, but not necessarily bombproof since you're going to need rims replacing, riding in all conditions. IMO.

Strada built Archetypes for me.

cycleclinic

Cx-rays get alloy nipples which save about 35g over brass on that (24F/28R) spoke count. I normally use brass in the vast majasrity of wheels. CX-rays or lasers save another 1.25g*28 =35g which accounts for the weight difference noted.

WI T11 hubs 20F/24R with lasers or CX-rays and alloy nipples and Pacenti SL23 rims weight around 1455g use the archetypes in this spoke count and brass nipples (sensible) will weigh 1570g increase the spoke count and add more weight but pick a spoke count suitable for your weight!

twgh

thecycleclinic wrote:

24F/28R archetype with DA hub and revs front comps rear and brass nipples is 1680g on my scales. The rims are 485g average I find not 470g which is what ugo maybe using.

If you really want to gram pich then the more expensive Pacenti SL23 will get you a sub 1600g wheelet but for a training wheel there is not better rim than the archetype it is cheap enough to replace when worn or crash damged and they hardly ever seem to crack. 28h archetype in black are hard to come by though at the moment. BLB/big mama say 6 weeks assuming no delay (production issues). Also as for made in china, HED rims are made in china and anyone who work with the achtype will know it is far better made (rounder) and a more consitant weight than the Mavic Open Pro or the ambrosio excellight.

I have training bikes with 32 spoke count wheels on ambrosio nemesis rims or archetypes, for racing I have low spoke count carbon clinchers but I have found I have used the carbon wheels for training too so who am I to talk. I built the archetype/chorus hub wheelset and the nemesis/DA wheelset for training purpose as they will do many more miles before spokes break but you know vanity tends to win with me anyway and I use my vanity wheels all the time against my better judgement. Winters coming though and the race bike is being stripped for repainting so back to the proper training wheels soon. I have many other wheelset too 32F/32R ambrosio excellight on miche hubs, 28 spoke DT Swiss RR415 rims (worn out now) on miche hubs must rebuild these and a few others. The point is for me racing wheels are low spoke count, fine to use them regulalrly but don't expect to get very high miles from them as you may but you may not. All my other wheels are higher spoke count I am 80kg by the way presently now I have stopped filling my cake hole with cake all day long. I am not very good at racing either but learning how not to do it every time I race.

As you pointed out it is easy to build sub 1500g wheels, for example Pacenti SL23 rims on White industries T11 hubs but while these are good wheels would I ride them through the winter crap- no I wouldn't so are they training wheels probably not.

DT Swiss are releasing a new rim the R460 24H, 28H and 32H drilling, 18mm internal width, cheap (£40) and 23mm deep. Weight 460g sounds kind of perfect to me. I will have to persuade madison to buy the 24H rim like I had to when they first brought in the RR440, which is another good rim a bit pricey though.

....for racing I have low spoke count carbon clinchers but I have found I have used the carbon wheels for training too so who am I to talk....

Out of interest what carbon clinchers are they?