Clip on TT bars and riding position

gloomyandy

Have been riding a few TTs this year, so far all on my standard road bike. Thinking of trying some clip on bars and looking for some thoughts on riding position. If you use clip on bars, do you also need to move your saddle position (forwards I assume) to get into more of a TT position (as you would be on a TT bike). For those of you that have gone this route, how well did they work for you? If you then made the next step and got a full on TT bike, how much better (or worse!) was that than your road bike with clip ons? Is a cheap TT bike (say a planet x stealth) significantly better than say a road bike with clip ons? What about the same road bike but with some deep section wheels?

Yes I know I could probably get better times if I trained harder, got a coach etc. but all the cool kids at a TT seem to have all this kit...

Maybe I should be asking this in the race forum?

slowbike

I use a standard road bike with clipons - took 3 minutes off my time - but that could also be from conditions and knowing the course a bit better - eitherway I wouldn't ride a normal TT without them. I am beating a few riders on full-TT bikes, but then I know that there are some capable of beating me on normal road bikes.

I don't use the road bike as a normal road bike any more - I have another one for that. So I was able to put the saddle up and forwards and point the nose down a bit. I've also changed to bar end shifters and dropped the stem down - it could still do with being a bit lower so I either need to change the bars, the stem or get a different bike!
This setup is working well for me for now (25minute 10's on a sporting course)

my next major upgrade will be some deeper section wheels - and I might change the bars too ... but I'm not going to replace the bike until it either breaks or I'm regularly in the top 20% of results.

ai_1

I'll be curious to see th eresponses here. I got a new road bike at the start of the summer and have just fitted clip-ons and a forward seatpost on my old bike (a Specialised Tricross - so hardly the ideal TT bike!)
My intention is to have a bike with which to try out riding in a TT/Tri bike position. I don't want to be continually changing the set-up on my road bike. I don't have great neck flexibility so I may never get particularly low. I'm starting with relatively high position and will see about dropping it a bit later. I've had a few rides so far and I'm reasonably happy. I can stay in the aero position for 10km+ although my arms, shoulders and neck start to become a little uncomfortable after the first couple of minutes. I'm not sure the position is spot-on but I'll work on it and see how I get on. I may get a bike fit down the road.
I might get a TT/Tri bike at some point in the future but this gives me the opportunity to get some idea how I'll get on with one.

P.S.
I've done several Duathlons and I manage ~32-35km/h on the bike leg over reasonably flat 20km courses so I'm not particularly fast. I plan to add triathlons and some TTs next year.

slowbike

Eek - a Tricross isn't the best! I've converted my Allez ... but didn't worry about changing the seat post - the position is comfortable now (slowly working down the front end) but the saddle isn't after any more than about 10 miles - so the hilly 22 was uncomfortable and hence slower than I wanted ...

mmacavity

http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bik ... s-reality/

drlodge

I find clip-on bars give you a mental advantage if nothing else, they really put you in the right mental attitude for a TT. I also think they provide an aero advantage...not sure how much.

IanRCarter

One thing I've found using clip on aero bars is that you need to be spinning a lower gear than you would be able to on the drops. I've done a few practice TT's recently and noticed massive time gains since I upped my cadence, I now target 95-105 whereas before 95 was about the max I would go to. I find if I'm pushing a larger gear at a lower cadence I pull up on the bars to help push down on the cranks, which isn't much of an issue on the drops but on the aero bars, it's difficult to avoid swerving across the road.

philbar72

drlodge wrote:

I find clip-on bars give you a mental advantage if nothing else, they really put you in the right mental attitude for a TT. I also think they provide an aero advantage...not sure how much.

Significant. a counterpart of mine did his best TT at 24:40 on his road bike, in very similar conditions with aero bars and a better aero fit he did 23:27.

after adjusting my position i went from 25:04 to 24:15 on a road bike without aerobars. i concentrated on staying low and ignoring lower back pain!

Position is key. as for whether a road frame with aero bars is good, it is, but dependant on the course, if its flat a tt rig will pretty much always win out...

ai_1

Slowbike wrote:

Eek - a Tricross isn't the best! I've converted my Allez ... but didn't worry about changing the seat post - the position is comfortable now (slowly working down the front end) but the saddle isn't after any more than about 10 miles - so the hilly 22 was uncomfortable and hence slower than I wanted ...

I'd recommend trying an ISM Adamo saddle. I tried a Breakaway test saddle last year for road biking and found it extremely comfortable in a low position. As a result I've fitted an Attack on the mutant Tricross. It's not comfortable yet after just a couple of short rides but that was my experience last year too. After a couple of weeks I adapted to it and then found it superb. I'm hoping for the same this time!

MichaelW

gloomyandy wrote:

If you use clip on bars, do you also need to move your saddle position (forwards I assume) to get into more of a TT position (as you would be on a TT bike).

TT bikes still follow the 5cm saddle layback rule.
Tri bikes are free to rotate the saddle up and forward about the bottom bracket to open the hip angle.

mfin

UCI rules on layback don't apply to CTT open events or club events, if you enter the nationals or something then it will be UCI rules.

See section 14 http://www.cyclingtimetrials.org.uk/Regulations

JackPozzi

IanRCarter wrote:

One thing I've found using clip on aero bars is that you need to be spinning a lower gear than you would be able to on the drops. I've done a few practice TT's recently and noticed massive time gains since I upped my cadence, I now target 95-105 whereas before 95 was about the max I would go to. I find if I'm pushing a larger gear at a lower cadence I pull up on the bars to help push down on the cranks, which isn't much of an issue on the drops but on the aero bars, it's difficult to avoid swerving across the road.

I'm the exact opposite, suspect it's down to biomechanics and setup as much as anything else

gloomyandy

Sounds like a number of you have a bike dedicated to TTs using clip on bars. One of my concerns about using them is the amount of faff involved in putting them on perhaps having to adjust saddle position etc. Do any of you just add the bars to your normal bike> How well does that work? Do the clip ons work with your standard bar position ok, i.e. you haven't had to change stems or add/remove spacers etc. to get a reasonable fit?

Anyone got any thoughts about a cheap time trial bike v a road bike with clip ons?

Cygnus

I've added clip on bars to my bike but not changed the saddle position or the stem length, that works for me. What I have noticed though is that it seems to encourage me to spin rather then grind.

Bordersroadie

A compromise between having a TT-dedicated bike and using your do-it-all bike with all the saddle adjustments needed is to use clip-on tri bars and a separate saddle/seatpost that you can swap out for a TT. Saves faffing with saddle position - unplug your normal seatpost/saddle, plug in the TT set and off you go.

mfin

gloomyandy wrote:

Sounds like a number of you have a bike dedicated to TTs using clip on bars. One of my concerns about using them is the amount of faff involved in putting them on perhaps having to adjust saddle position etc. Do any of you just add the bars to your normal bike> How well does that work? Do the clip ons work with your standard bar position ok, i.e. you haven't had to change stems or add/remove spacers etc. to get a reasonable fit?

Anyone got any thoughts about a cheap time trial bike v a road bike with clip ons?

First thing to do is get some clip ons, get some that sit as low as possible to the handlebar. Then clip them on, don't change the saddle position or anything like that and just ride. Once you commit to spending as much of a 10 as you can on the TT extensions, most people starting of TT-ing will find they are worth 'about a minute'. (Yes, if you think you are running too many spacers then get some of those out, but only if you're running 'high' anyway).

I'd do the above first, and see if the bug for TT-ing really grabs hold before getting a TT bike.

drlodge

mfin wrote:

First thing to do is get some clip ons, get some that sit as low as possible to the handlebar. Then clip them on, don't change the saddle position or anything like that and just ride.

+1 to that. The only change I'd make for a TT initially is to slam the stem if its not already i.e. get the bars as low as you can.

supermurph09

I'd ask the question, "Do I really need clip ons at all?". At this early point TT'ing is about beating your previous time, doesn't matter what you are riding. If you then want to start doing things properly then moving to a dedicated bike that after some adjustment will put you in the proper position. I'd really like to hear what difference clips ons made from people that have ridden the same course in similar conditions a number times. It's highly likely that any initial improvement will come from better pacing or knowing the course not because of the clip ons. Ride the course a 4-5 times, stick on the clips ons and let me know!

diy

I added inline seat post and slammed the bars as well as moving the seat forward. A proper TT bike will give you an advantage, but they don't go round corners too well geometry depending. The thing a decent TT bike will give you is stability at higher straight line speed.

The main gain from the riding position was the ability to get the power down better, not just the aero improvements.

slowbike

drlodge wrote:

mfin wrote:

First thing to do is get some clip ons, get some that sit as low as possible to the handlebar. Then clip them on, don't change the saddle position or anything like that and just ride.

+1 to that. The only change I'd make for a TT initially is to slam the stem if its not already i.e. get the bars as low as you can.

Slamming the stem can be counter productive to start with - you have to work down to a position, but yes, as low as you can is generally the idea.

slowbike

Supermurph09 wrote:

I'd ask the question, "Do I really need clip ons at all?". At this early point TT'ing is about beating your previous time, doesn't matter what you are riding. If you then want to start doing things properly then moving to a dedicated bike that after some adjustment will put you in the proper position. I'd really like to hear what difference clips ons made from people that have ridden the same course in similar conditions a number times. It's highly likely that any initial improvement will come from better pacing or knowing the course not because of the clip ons. Ride the course a 4-5 times, stick on the clips ons and let me know!

My bike I use for TTs and my road bike have the same geometry - the difference is the TT bike has the clipons, slightly lower stem and a forward saddle position (ie as close to a TT bike as I can get without it being a TT bike).
The road bike is the carbon one with "better" wheels.
I often ride the same roads on my road bike as I do the TT bike - the TT bike is ~2-3mph faster for the same (perceived) effort - and that's even after getting into TT position on the road bike.

ai_1

Supermurph09 wrote:

I'd ask the question, "Do I really need clip ons at all?". At this early point TT'ing is about beating your previous time, doesn't matter what you are riding. If you then want to start doing things properly then moving to a dedicated bike that after some adjustment will put you in the proper position. I'd really like to hear what difference clips ons made from people that have ridden the same course in similar conditions a number times. It's highly likely that any initial improvement will come from better pacing or knowing the course not because of the clip ons. Ride the course a 4-5 times, stick on the clips ons and let me know!

From my first couple of rides it appears clip-ons are gaining me at least 1-2km/h compared to the drops for equivalent effort, or about the same as I previously found by adopting a Cancellara type forearm on tops position. I've tried the forearms on tops position for periods during multisport races in the past but it gets uncomfortable fairly quickly, isn't the safest of positions and it's only for fast cruising not trying to push very hard as you have nothing to hold onto.
However, I'm not going to stand over that 1-2km/h suggestion until I've done plenty more testing!

simon_masterson

A well fitting road bike will not provide an optimal aero position any more than a well fitting TT bike or lo pro would work well as a road bike if you swapped the bars for drops (etc etc etc).

Clearly, it works to a degree as otherwise no-one would use a road bike with clip-ons, but (amongst many other things) the effective top tube length on a TT frame needs to be quite a bit shorter. I haven't tried myself, but I'd be concerned about handling and comfort (eg. having too much weight on arms) with seatposts designed to pitch you further forward and short stems.

It's really a choice between having a pretty good position on a road bike or deciding that TT is for you, and getting yourself a dedicated rig - and they don't have to be expensive. I'm doing a lo pro build now, and don't expect it to cost all that much when done, at least initially.

gloomyandy

Hi Folks,
thanks for all of the comments. All very interesting. I've got a set of clip ons on order and will try riding a few tts with them to see how I get on (I've ridden about 10 local tt so far and regularly ride a local 10 mile circuit so have things to try them on). Would still be interested to hear others experiences of the differences between a road bike setup and a full on tt bike. Would also be interested to hear peoples thoughts on say a road bike with clip ons and deep wheels v a tt bike with standard wheels. Trying to understand the various gains to be had really.

ai_1

Simon Masterson wrote:

....the effective top tube length on a TT frame needs to be quite a bit shorter. I haven't tried myself, but I'd be concerned about handling and comfort (eg. having too much weight on arms) with seatposts designed to pitch you further forward and short stems.....

A TT bike will typically need a shorter effective TT but since the seatpost angle is much steeper that may not equate to much of a difference in reach. I've found that having fitted a forward seatpost the bike is actually too short if anything. I've put on a 20mm longer stem than I used with it as a straight road bike. I haven't measured how far forward I've moved my seating position but it may well be 60mm or so. The reach seems about right but the weight distribution definitely adversely effects handling. It's fine in a straight line!
Just to be clear, I'm pretty sure my setup isn't a million miles off but I'm still experimenting and not claiming any expertise on the subject!


Incidentally, what's a lo pro?

mfin

OP, this might interest you http://cyclingtips.com.au/2010/04/biggest-bang-for-your-buck-in-time-trial-equipment/

simon_masterson

Ai_1 wrote:

Simon Masterson wrote:

....the effective top tube length on a TT frame needs to be quite a bit shorter. I haven't tried myself, but I'd be concerned about handling and comfort (eg. having too much weight on arms) with seatposts designed to pitch you further forward and short stems.....

A TT bike will typically need a shorter effective TT but since the seatpost angle is much steeper that may not equate to much of a difference in reach. I've found that having fitted a forward seatpost the bike is actually too short if anything. I've put on a 20mm longer stem than I used with it as a straight road bike. I haven't measured how far forward I've moved my seating position but it may well be 60mm or so. The reach seems about right but the weight distribution definitely adversely effects handling. It's fine in a straight line!
Just to be clear, I'm pretty sure my setup isn't a million miles off but I'm still experimenting and not claiming any expertise on the subject!


Incidentally, what's a lo pro?

The difference definitely isn't enormous, and it does of course depend on the rest of the frame's geometry. But what you're definitely right about is that it's got to be comfortable for you!

A lo pro, or low profile, on the other hand is an older TT bike - from around the mid to late '80s to the early to mid '90s, when bikes started to be particularly specialised for the discipline. Usually made in steel, and usually with a smaller front wheel, as well as various combinations of sloping geometry and curvy tubes to achieve a position much as the name suggests.

I always loved the ones Boardman rode in the Gan colours, like this. I was going to source one as there were lots made, but I seem to have a lead on another frame that's particularly special. Haven't got it yet though.