Dodgy Tommasini

term1te

My son bought a bike claiming to be a Tommasini from a second hand shop at the weekend. It’s not a bad bike, fully chromed Columbus aelle frame, mix of Shimano 600 and 105 components, 6 speed freewheel, nice Selle San Marco Rolls saddle, Mavic MA4 rims on 105 hubs. I’d guess it is from the late 80s and rides surprisingly well. However, the paint is remarkable dull and non-Tommasini like. There are no “T” cut-outs on the lugs or BB shell and whilst the decals look contemporary with the bike, the head badge just looks wrong and says Tommasini racing Switzerland. There is a frame number just visible under the paint on the BB shell, and the frame size is also stamped on the shell (53). The fork dropouts are Tange TR, no markings on the rear dropouts. I’ve found an identical, but larger, one that sold on an auction site recently, from very near me, may have even come from the same original shop? Saved me taking some photos:

http://www.ricardo.ch/kaufen/sports/radsport/rennvelos/tommasini-racing-gelegenheit/v/an735615072/

He got it for less that half the price the one on the auction site went for.

I know there may, or may not, have been some dodgy Tommasinis coming out of Switzerland recently, but this one seems to predate this.

Does anyone have any clue to the history of this bike?

ugo.santalucia

Measure the tubes and compare them against the geometry of a Tecno and a Super Prestige, which you can find online... if it's close enough, then it is as good as a Tommasini, I would say.
Engraved T and similar ornaments might be a recent thing, in the past they did not bother with such things

LegendLust

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Measure the tubes and compare them against the geometry of a Tecno and a Super Prestige, which you can find online... if it's close enough, then it is as good as a Tommasini, I would say.
Engraved T and similar ornaments might be a recent thing, in the past they did not bother with such things

Why?

rolf_f

The fact that you've found two identical is a pretty strong indication that there's nothing dodgy about it!

LegendLust

Rolf F wrote:

The fact that you've found two identical is a pretty strong indication that there's nothing dodgy about it!

Apart from the fact that they're passing off their frames on the back of the history and prestige that Tommasini have built up over the years

rolf_f

LegendLust wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

The fact that you've found two identical is a pretty strong indication that there's nothing dodgy about it!

Apart from the fact that they're passing off their frames on the back of the history and prestige that Tommasini have built up over the years

Who is "they"? As far as I could tell, the pics in the link appear to be of an old bike with an old paint job. What evidence do you have that these frames aren't made by Tommasini.

As Ugo intimated - it hasn't always been the case that Italian manufacturers have been so insecure that they feel the need to perforate and engrave every single lug with the company logo! Once upon a time, things were a little more tasteful......

ugo.santalucia

LegendLust wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Measure the tubes and compare them against the geometry of a Tecno and a Super Prestige, which you can find online... if it's close enough, then it is as good as a Tommasini, I would say.
Engraved T and similar ornaments might be a recent thing, in the past they did not bother with such things

Why?

The ride quality is largely given by the geometry. Whether the lugs are more or less pretty won't make much difference and if it survived all these years, it means the joints are sound. It could be gas pipe of course, but if you ping the tubes you should be able to tell a butted tube from a plain one... and of course plain tubes weigh a ton

LegendLust

Rolf F wrote:

LegendLust wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

The fact that you've found two identical is a pretty strong indication that there's nothing dodgy about it!

Apart from the fact that they're passing off their frames on the back of the history and prestige that Tommasini have built up over the years

Who is "they"? As far as I could tell, the pics in the link appear to be of an old bike with an old paint job. What evidence do you have that these frames aren't made by Tommasini.

As Ugo intimated - it hasn't always been the case that Italian manufacturers have been so insecure that they feel the need to perforate and engrave every single lug with the company logo! Once upon a time, things were a little more tasteful......

It's nothing to do with the lugs - more like the T on the head tube badge is not the same as the original Tommasini T.

LegendLust

ugo.santalucia wrote:

LegendLust wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Measure the tubes and compare them against the geometry of a Tecno and a Super Prestige, which you can find online... if it's close enough, then it is as good as a Tommasini, I would say.
Engraved T and similar ornaments might be a recent thing, in the past they did not bother with such things

Why?

The ride quality is largely given by the geometry. Whether the lugs are more or less pretty won't make much difference and if it survived all these years, it means the joints are sound. It could be gas pipe of course, but if you ping the tubes you should be able to tell a butted tube from a plain one... and of course plain tubes weigh a ton

So you don't think there is a difference between the skills of different framebuilders who happen to join pipes together? They might have the same geometry and tubes but if the rear triangle is out of track for instance then it won't ride the same.

It's a bit like saying all wheelbuilders build the same quality wheels because they use the same spoke counts and parts.

ugo.santalucia

LegendLust wrote:

So you don't think there is a difference between the skills of different framebuilders who happen to join pipes together? They might have the same geometry and tubes but if the rear triangle is out of track for instance then it won't ride the same.

It's a bit like saying all wheelbuilders build the same quality wheels because they use the same spoke counts and parts.

Yes pretty much...
If a frame survived many years and use it's well made, whether it was Ugo Tommasini or Ugo Santalucia who built it makes no difference at all. We are not talking about a dodgy chinese replica made of cheese... whatever this is, it's an artisan made frame and pretty much all artisan frame builders know what they are doing

rolf_f

LegendLust wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

LegendLust wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

The fact that you've found two identical is a pretty strong indication that there's nothing dodgy about it!

Apart from the fact that they're passing off their frames on the back of the history and prestige that Tommasini have built up over the years

Who is "they"? As far as I could tell, the pics in the link appear to be of an old bike with an old paint job. What evidence do you have that these frames aren't made by Tommasini.

As Ugo intimated - it hasn't always been the case that Italian manufacturers have been so insecure that they feel the need to perforate and engrave every single lug with the company logo! Once upon a time, things were a little more tasteful......

It's nothing to do with the lugs - more like the T on the head tube badge is not the same as the original Tommasini T.

If you look at most badges, they vary over time. Back end of the eighties being a perfect case in point where companies seemed to enjoy abandoning heritage in favour of a more modern image. If you are going to fake something, it's a damn sight easier to just copy the original rather than make up a new, uglier design that draws attention to itself. What would be the point?

mercia_man

Columbus Aelle was low end plain gauge tubing used for cheaper bikes and is heavier and weaker than high end butted tubing like SL, SLX, Max and EL fitted to top of the range bikes such as the Super Prestige. So because cheaper frame tubing is used on this bike, it's no surprise that fancy cut out lugs are not used.

The lugs on that eBay bike look very similar to the Cinelli investment cast short point lugs popular in the 80s. I have them on my Alves touring bike along with Cinelli cast fork crown and bottom bracket.

ugo.santalucia

Mercia Man wrote:

Columbus Aelle was low end plain gauge tubing used for cheaper bikes and is heavier and weaker than high end butted tubing like SL, SLX, Max and EL fitted to top of the range bikes such as the Super Prestige. So because cheaper frame tubing is used on this bike, it's no surprise that fancy cut out lugs are not used.

The lugs on that eBay bike look very similar to the Cinelli investment cast short point lugs popular in the 80s. I have them on my Alves touring bike along with Cinelli cast fork crown and bottom bracket.

Aelle is often found on large frames... it was not a top end tubing, but there was less money around in the 1980s and it's entirely possible Tommasini used it for lower end budgets... he was/is an artisan, not a boutique elite brazer like they are these days Bianchi used Aelle...

neilr4

I owned 2 Tommasini's in my time and this is definitely NOT an original :shock:

A dead giveaway even for the non affiliated was that Tommasini are built in Italy and not Switzerland as stated on the cheap sticker on the headtube.

Tommasini never used Columbus Alle tubing, SL was their lowest rated tubeset. They build exclusive bike frames only so no need to skimp on tube quality in order to sell frames, buyers had no problem forkig out for the name it simply spoke for itself!!!


Neil.