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Rotherham abuse enquiry

DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 6,337
edited August 2014 in The cake stop
It's rare that a news item has the power to shock but reading that 1,400 kids have been abused in one Northern town while the authorities sat on their hands for fear of being labelled racist is truly shocking. How the hell can this be allowed to happen to kids just so we don't upset race relations. There is something rotten in the Muslim community and their attitude towards women - kids shouldn't be paying the price.
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  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 14,790
    As espoused on other threads, some groups in this country have become untouchable. Their views and practices are not compatible with those of a 21 century democracy.
  • city_boycity_boy Posts: 1,616
    ballysmate wrote:
    As espoused on other threads, some groups in this country have become untouchable. Their views and practices are not compatible with those of a 21 century democracy.

    The irony is that many of these groups are allowed to carry on with their racist/sexist/homophobic (delete as necessary) cultures and everyone else has to sit back and say nothing for fear of being branded racist or offending them :(

    I tend to share this view of being offended.........

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  • mr_goomr_goo Posts: 3,755
    Well I'm glad somebody else started this thread and highlighted that a certain community following a certain religion are responsible for these multiple heinous crimes.
    The number of 1,400 is a confirmed number of individual children abused by these foul, evil men from Pakistan, who practice their vile medieval attitudes on young girls and women in the UK. Civilisation and Democracy are so alien to this community. They are given every opportunity to become part of our open and inclusive society, yet return their religious based attitudes to females and children which is at complete odds to our way of life.
    The authorities have already admitted that the abuse is still continuing and that the historic case numbers are conservative figures. Unbelievable numbers considering the population is 50,000. Think what is happening in towns and cities with higher populations and a reasonable size community practicing the same religion.

    Can't wait for my friend north of the border to find yet another excuse for this community.
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  • finchyfinchy Posts: 6,689
    I'd like to see prosecutions of those council ******s who didn't do anything about it through fear of being called "racist".
  • mr_goomr_goo Posts: 3,755
    johnfinch wrote:
    I'd like to see prosecutions of those council ******s who didn't do anything about it through fear of being called "racist".

    Couldn't agree more. Too much fear and pandering to the sensibilities of this communities religion.

    There was a news article on Sky News website earlier today, interviewing the deputy leader of this communities' religious organisation, regarding the UK jihadists fighting in Syria and Iraq for IS. He stated that his community have been given a bad image by the UK press and other organisations and that they are viewed in a negative way by the rest of the population. Well this news won't help one bit. It's not the first case of child abuse from this community and this enquiry is likely to instigate an 'operation yew tree' style investigation into the actions of this section of the population.
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  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    I doubt that will happen, or if does, it ll be kicked around for years, this thread has had 5 replies and is now way down the list compared to say "Beckham" people in the UK are not really interested in children's services, which is why council after council and successful Governments cuts these services to the bone.

    The authorities failed these kids and the biggest villains are the Police who are charged to up hold the law, they (in this instance and many many others) repeatedly don't, but we still place them on a pedestal and treat them as if they were heroic Gods.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 14,204
    mamba80 wrote:
    I doubt that will happen, or if does, it ll be kicked around for years, this thread has had 5 replies and is now way down the list compared to say "Beckham" people in the UK are not really interested in children's services, which is why council after council and successful Governments cuts these services to the bone.

    The authorities failed these kids and the biggest villains are the Police who are charged to up hold the law, they (in this instance and many many others) repeatedly don't, but we still place them on a pedestal and treat them as if they were heroic Gods.
    This thread is down the list as it was posted last night and it is still early.

    The outrage is coming.

    I personally would jail all involved, including the cover up. If we need more prisons, so be it.
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  • mamba80 wrote:
    The authorities failed these kids and the biggest villains are the Police who are charged to up hold the law, they (in this instance and many many others) repeatedly don't, but we still place them on a pedestal and treat them as if they were heroic Gods.

    And how would the Police stop it...?

    The victims in this case were almost without exception from within the care system. They were willing participants, infact Social Work referred to them as 'Child Prostitutes'.

    Young girls, who were sexually active, would willingly go out and have sex with these people in return for money and gifts.

    So I say again, how would you stop them...? Could we lock them up for their own safety and create a different sort of outrage about children being kept in Police cells (again)....?

    The next difficulty is prosecution. The law states that to prosecute someone you need a victim. That's a person willing to stand up in a Court and provide evidence that they had been raped or were the victim of sexual abuse by a certain persons. These 'victims' would not do that. Without that how can the Police prosecute...?

    On a side note, some of these men are currently serving long prison services... I guess the villanous police played no part in that...?
  • capt_slogcapt_slog Posts: 3,447
    You can't stop the ones you describe as sexually active, and I don't think that's the issue here.

    However, when someone goes to the police and the complaint is ignored, or as on the news this morning, the evidence (clothing in this case) is 'lost' and they're told "it's your word against his", then questions are bound to be asked.


    The older I get, the better I was.

  • If evidence goes walkabout then that's a seperate issue, it happens unfortunately. You send the exhibits office an E mail saying the case is finished and all property held under reference A11652883/2013 can be destroyed. But the old fellow working in the office bins the property for A1165283/2013 instead... These things happen, it's human error.

    And 'it's your word against his', well yes it is, that's how the justice system works. Will a court believe a 15yr girl with a long history of offending and telling lies against a 'respectable businessman' with a variety of his close friends and associates who will stand up in court saying he didn't do it... Even under oath. As someone who goes to court regularly, I see guilty people walking away every day... Should we lie to a victim and not tell them the hard facts about the likely outcome...?

    The system isn't ideal... But we've had it for a long time and it can it's getting harder, not easier, to prosecute with more and more legislation being brought it.
  • ProssPross Posts: 25,484
    I agree with the outrage against the perpetrators and those who have become so scared of being accused of an 'ism' that they failed to react but it's unfair to suggest that these disgusting excuses for human beings were in someway following the teachings of their religion. However, I'll admit to being wrong if someone can point me to the part of the quran that implies abusing children and plying them with drugs and alcohol before sharing them around your mates and other like minded adults is acceptable let alone a religious requirement. This isn't a religious issue and it helps no-one to suggest it is, that's the sort of thinking that stopped people taking action.
  • ProssPross Posts: 25,484
    The victims in this case were almost without exception from within the care system. They were willing participants, infact Social Work referred to them as 'Child Prostitutes'.


    Sorry for the selective quoting but isn't that exactly the attitude that is being criticised in this case? You'll know the law better than me but I always understood that a person under the age of 16 cannot be a willing participant and some in this case were only 12.
  • Yes, there's an offence of statutory rape, consensual sex with a child. They law states that a child cannot give their consent.

    However, they still need evidence that sex took place - the bad guy isn't going to say, the child isnt going to say and you cannot force a child to have a medical examination against their will so there is no forensic evidence.

    So yes, I have no doubt Cops knew it was going on, but their is a big difference between what you know and what you can prove.
  • capt_slogcapt_slog Posts: 3,447
    Colin. I'm one of the few that still thinks the British police are wonderful. When my kids were little, I've pointed out policemen and told them that the chap over there is there to help them etc. Truly.

    And I fully agree that 'it's your word against his', is how the justice system works. But even I find it a bit suspicious when the evidence goes missing and then the victim is told that, and can fully understand why someone might think that some covering is happening for one reason or another.


    The older I get, the better I was.

  • tangled_metaltangled_metal Posts: 4,015
    Wasn't one story that came out was about the father of one of the girls being abused in care heard about it and tried to take the child away. He ended up being arrested for trying to protect his child from child abuse in the care system! Scary thought really. kids can end up in care due to many circumstances. There are tragic cases where good parents are simply unable to manage and have to relinquish care of their child into the state. They are not all scrotes but some parents still care enough to want to protect their kids even if they are in the care system. To know what is happening to your child then be unable to do anything.

    It is all a sick mess. British society for you.

    BTW If you want to lump all Muslims or other ethnic group into the same sick perverted group as the people abusing these kids you are wrong. There are good in any group and I've known some good people from my days in Blackburn from those communities. It is just that some don't accept any practice but their own. They appear to and live in a modern world but behind the curtain they are back in rural Pakistan.
  • Capt. Slog - There may have been a cover-up, I just don't know. I wasn't there and don't have a lot of knowldge about the case.

    There is corruption within the Police, if someone offered you £10k to lose a bit of paper, some people might be tempted. It's human nature.

    But cover-ups do happen. The next big one will be the paedophile ring within the Government in the 70's. When the full story of that comes out it's going to run and run and run... I have no doubt some officers had knowledge of that, and for whatever reason did nothing. And some of the stories i've heard from old Cops are truely shocking...
  • Capt Slog wrote:
    and can fully understand why someone might think that some covering is happening for one reason or another.


    Without wanting to go too much off topic, have a read of this -

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/437954 ... on-officer

    I joined the Police in the 80's, the first station I worked in was Brixton in South London, Policing then was a gulf away from what it is now, I believe what that Cop is saying. Some units/people were above the law. That's just the way it was.

    I'd imagine there will be a drip feed of stories like this until it all blows up.
  • laurentianlaurentian Posts: 1,773
    Pross wrote:
    I agree with the outrage against the perpetrators and those who have become so scared of being accused of an 'ism' that they failed to react but it's unfair to suggest that these disgusting excuses for human beings were in someway following the teachings of their religion. However, I'll admit to being wrong if someone can point me to the part of the quran that implies abusing children and plying them with drugs and alcohol before sharing them around your mates and other like minded adults is acceptable let alone a religious requirement. This isn't a religious issue and it helps no-one to suggest it is, that's the sort of thinking that stopped people taking action.

    That saved me typing.
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  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 6,337
    Pross - this is a Muslim issue. Of course not all Muslims engage in this kind of thing and not all people that engage in child grooming are Muslim - but in this particular type of grooming Muslim men are massively overrepresented. By pretending it isn't you are effectively denying the problem. It's a belief system, an ideology, it shouldn't be immune from criticism just because it's a religion, no religion should.

    At the same time yes it appears that there are plenty of people of influence in our society who have been involved in paedo rings and almost certainly these have been covered up so we will never really know the truth or at least the truth will never be proven in court. That is horrendous in itself but if this Rotherham case is typical of similar towns then we could be talking about maybe a hundred thousand teenagers abused and the whole thing covered up.
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  • ProssPross Posts: 25,484
    Pross - this is a Muslim issue. Of course not all Muslims engage in this kind of thing and not all people that engage in child grooming are Muslim - but in this particular type of grooming Muslim men are massively overrepresented. By pretending it isn't you are effectively denying the problem. It's a belief system, an ideology, it shouldn't be immune from criticism just because it's a religion, no religion should.

    At the same time yes it appears that there are plenty of people of influence in our society who have been involved in paedo rings and almost certainly these have been covered up so we will never really know the truth or at least the truth will never be proven in court. That is horrendous in itself but if this Rotherham case is typical of similar towns then we could be talking about maybe a hundred thousand teenagers abused and the whole thing covered up.

    No it isn't. I'll say it again, find me something in Islamic teaching that states this sort of thing is acceptable. Religious belief may be used as an excuse for it as it has been for atrocities over the years but I really don't think there is any genuine religion teaching that it is OK to do so. It is more a cultural issue than a religious one.
  • Pesky JonesPesky Jones Posts: 2,986
    Pross wrote:
    It is more a cultural issue than a religious one.

    Agreed. But if religion is being used as an "excuse" then it becomes a religious issue?
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  • The fact is a lot of kids were expoited and abused in Rotherham. Arguing over which cultures are more likely to abuse kids is daft. I was in the police for a while and spent a lot of time dealing with kids in care who had gone "missing". When the care home can be bothered to tell you, we would keep an eye out for them. The kids would return after a few hours or days but they would rarely tell you what they had been up to. And you can't exactly force them to tell you. And when you have a hundred other things to do and child A goes absent 5 times a week and always comes back eventually, they can fall down the list of priorities.
    The care system has many things wrong with it but labelling a religion or race as responsible won't help fix it.
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  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    The fact is a lot of kids were expoited and abused in Rotherham. Arguing over which cultures are more likely to abuse kids is daft. I was in the police for a while and spent a lot of time dealing with kids in care who had gone "missing". When the care home can be bothered to tell you, we would keep an eye out for them. The kids would return after a few hours or days but they would rarely tell you what they had been up to. And you can't exactly force them to tell you. And when you have a hundred other things to do and child A goes absent 5 times a week and always comes back eventually, they can fall down the list of priorities.
    The care system has many things wrong with it but labelling a religion or race as responsible won't help fix it.

    As I said earlier, society lists the welfare of vulnerable adults and children way down there and this is way these abuse cases, ranging from the elderly to child sex exploitation keep occurring.
    Our value systems are just so messed up.

    So called Muslim men (in this and many other cases) who already view western women very badly, see this as a green light for their behaviour, especially as they carry on with their crimes with impunity for many years.
  • GiraffotoGiraffoto Posts: 2,078

    Have you seen the comments section on that article? Wall to wall tinfoil hats time!
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  • tangled_metaltangled_metal Posts: 4,015
    IMHO it is not a religious matter but it is a matter for religion (the Muslim one that is). What I mean is there is probably nothing in the Muslim religion that says this is acceptable but there is the small issue that culture and religion are not separate. It is not the Muslim religion to "sew your wild oats then settle down" but it is the Muslim cultural traditions to do so. This involves alcohol, sexual activities (including those not religiously or socially acceptable).

    BTW I was told by a Muslim mate that his Imam and other senior people in his Mosque would tell young lads to go out and sleep around, do drink and drugs when young. IIRC it was something about getting a perspective on what is important by trying stuff, was a few decades ago we had this conversation. As heinous as these activities have been they are really a more extreme version of what is actually "taught" by religious leaders and not even the extremist ones.

    However I do not equate that as strictly religious but as I said there is always a cultural aspect to religion. It is not black and white in any way.

    As others said this is more an issue with the child protection system or the legal system that provides the means to protect vulnerable kids. That is a major problem as how can you detect and prosecute activities that are under the radar or covert such that evidence is not easy to obtain? Add to that the issue that grooming is statistically more likely to be carried out by white males. I can not remember where I got that from but it was a radio 4 interview with someone senior in child protection (social services or police or child protection charities I can not remember). That was after the last year's conviction of the Muslim child grooming gang. There was an outcry about how it was the muslim culture to groom white kids or because it was muslims grooming white kids that made it race related. The interviewee gave the figure that the majority of those grooming children for abuse are white males not people of minorities such as muslims or those of Pakistani ethnicity. I guess that means most grooming comes from within the family of the victims. Is it a case of looking to your own community/family? Would you report inappropriate behaviour from a family member?

    This is incredibly difficult matters, way too difficult to label as a "muslim problem". It is a problem period. let's find the solution!!!
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 14,204
    ... It is not the Muslim religion to "sew your wild oats then settle down" but it is the Muslim cultural traditions to do so. This involves alcohol, sexual activities (including those not religiously or socially acceptable).

    BTW I was told by a Muslim mate that his Imam and other senior people in his Mosque would tell young lads to go out and sleep around, do drink and drugs when young. IIRC it was something about getting a perspective on what is important by trying stuff, was a few decades ago we had this conversation. As heinous as these activities have been they are really a more extreme version of what is actually "taught" by religious leaders and not even the extremist ones....
    Is that in any way different from any other religion and/or culture.
    "sew your wild oats then settle down" was certainly what I did.
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  • tangled_metaltangled_metal Posts: 4,015
    Giraffoto wrote:

    Have you seen the comments section on that article? Wall to wall tinfoil hats time!

    WOW! Tin hats on tin hats I think. Also BNP supporters or employees. Surprised there was no UKIP comment or are they too "Wacko-lite" for an Express comment page??? Anyone think the spaghetti monster will come and make things alright by putting them in their place?? :lol:

    I thought the Daily Wail was bad. Mind you the Indie and Guardian comments get a bit wacko sometimes, especially if there is any link to Russia in there!! I blame the Russians in all this. The Muslim Russian establishment police MPs and cadaver dogs in the cover up. Add to that MI6, MI5 and the skull&cross bones too.

    Sorry, I got off topic there.
  • tangled_metaltangled_metal Posts: 4,015
    pblakeney wrote:
    Is that in any way different from any other religion and/or culture.
    "sew your wild oats then settle down" was certainly what I did.

    The difference is the bit left out and that is sew your oats with someone outside your religion. You never despoil one of your own but everyone else is fair game!!! I guess with other religions they don't have restrictions or imply the worst excesses are acceptable.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    pblakeney wrote:
    Is that in any way different from any other religion and/or culture.
    "sew your wild oats then settle down" was certainly what I did.

    I don't think Christianity preaches this in any shape what so ever.

    its irrelevant, trafficking kids for sex is a heinous crime, but it would seem that the Police/CPS and Government don't view it as such.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 14,204
    pblakeney wrote:
    Is that in any way different from any other religion and/or culture.
    "sew your wild oats then settle down" was certainly what I did.

    The difference is the bit left out and that is sew your oats with someone outside your religion. You never despoil one of your own but everyone else is fair game!!! I guess with other religions they don't have restrictions or imply the worst excesses are acceptable.
    But you never said that in your earlier post. I certainly dabbled with women of many religions as I am not interested in any religion.
    Are "everyone else is fair game!!!" and "imply the worst excesses are acceptable" expressed in the terms as you have written by Imans or is this conjecture?
    It would be interesting to know what is meant by "fair game" and imply is not the same as instruct.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
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