Vittoria Pave 700 X 25

letap73

I have just recently bought a wheel set built with the Archetype rim with comfort in mind. I was considering pairing them with the GP4000s II 700 x 25 tyre mainly as I have been very happy with their overall performance on another wheel set. However I have noticed the existence of the Pave which appears more durable than the Corsa and available in size 700 x 25 at an excellent price. In addition I note that GP4000s II exist in size 700 x 28 and the Pave exist in size 700 x 27. This prompts a number of questions:

1. How does the Pave (700 x 25) compare to the GP4000s II?
2. Is it worth paying more for the Pave (700 x 27) or waiting for the GP4000s II (700 x28) to be available?
3. Should I rule out the Corsa (700 x 25)?
4. Are there other alternatives?

In terms of comfort moving from 23 to 25 in the GP4000s there was significant difference to me -hence why I am interested in the larger sizes.

drlodge

The Pave is a lovely tyre due to its 320 TPI thread count, it gives a lovely ride better than the GP4000S or Michelin Pro4 SC that I've also used. But, it is more delicate. Both my Pave tyres (the older 24c model) have cut up a bit, and both tyres have a significant slash which I have repaired using an inner tube patch on the inside. They're still very usable but I only have them on during the summer months. Its nearly time to take them off and put the Pro4 SC back on...

The GP4000S and Pro4 SC are more durable, so depends what you're looking for in a tyre. May be do as I do - use the Pave during the summer and the GP4000SIIs at other times?

letap73

Thanks for the quick reply - just a few questions: - what mileage are you getting from those tyres? What are the roads like where you ride? + How do your contis fair in the same conditions?

ai_1

If you're interested in large volume tyres then the Michelin Pro4 Service Course tyre in "25mm" size might be a very good choice. Reportedly the real size of this tyre is much bigger than 25mm. Those who've measured them and posted figures generally report widths between 27mm and 28mm (variations mostly dependent on rim size and pressure I presume) and Michelin themselves admit it's real size is 27mm+. They are typically very well reviewed and often compared favourably against the GP4000s. I haven't tried them myself but if I wanted a ~27mm tyre I think that's what I'd get. A little cheaper than Pave or GP4000s. Better durability than Pave, currently available in larger size than GP4000s (although they're both are labelled as 25mm the Pro4 SC is apparently ~2mm wider!), ride reportedly as good or better than GP4000s. Reportedly has similar grip and durability to GP4000s. Almost identical weight to GP4000s.

drlodge

letap73 wrote:

Thanks for the quick reply - just a few questions: - what mileage are you getting from those tyres? What are the roads like where you ride? + How do your contis fair in the same conditions?

Mileage - don't know as they haven't worn out yet. I might have done 1,000 miles on them so far and the pimple tread is starting to wear. I changed my GP4000S tyres after about 3,000 miles.

Roads - Surrey roads. Mostly in the dry but have been out in the wet without any punctures. The two slashes seem to be random, certainly the tyres do hold up to gravel and assorted cr@p fairly well, just not as robust as the other tyres I mentioned.

The Contis lasted fine, as with the Pro4SC. The Contis got replaced once the tyres had squared off, the ProSC seem to be a little more robust.

ugo.santalucia

These are the open version of the tubular, so basically the same tyre but not stitched up... as such they are race tyres, designed for the wet and muddy spring classics. Grip and elasticity are the selling point. Race tyres are not meant to last... they will be used for one race or maybe two-three by the domestiques and then binned. You'll be very lucky to get 2,000 miles. The pattern in the centre strip on the rear tyre wears off pretty quickly... 600 miles or so. The front tends to last longer

g00se

I got some 25mm Veloflex Corsas for the alps earlier this year. They're just about the same as the Vittoria Open Corsas (the story goes that when Vittoria shipped production out to the far east, some of the remaining Italian staff started up Veloflex).

They've been - by far - the most fun and the most fast tyres I've ever ridden. So much so, that they've stayed on the bike since I got back and now the rear has just about had it 1500 miles later.

Also, I don't want to tempt fate but only one puncture in that time - and that was due to a pinch flat as I was experimenting with lowering pressure.

I'll keep the front tyre and buy another for the alps next year - but it'll be something a bit more hardy for the autumn and winter.

meanredspider

I use Paves on my SS commuter in a 27c size. It's Amsterdam so there is actually pave. They've been great though, as Ugo says, the diamond pattern on the rear tyre has worn off. No visits and no "moments" either - a very nice ride. I use the 25c as my winter road bike tyre over here (using them in the summer seems very odd, DrL, but I'm sure we've discussed this before) for their wet weather grip. I perceive them to be slightly slower than Rubino Pros (in that I simply couldn't match my Strava segment times with them on but could when I swapped) and assumed that the grippier rubber maybe slowed them slightly (not that it makes much sense but, at 320tpi, they should be quicker than the 150tpi Rubino)

ugo.santalucia

meanredspider wrote:

I perceive them to be slightly slower than Rubino Pros (in that I simply couldn't match my Strava segment times with them on but could when I swapped) and assumed that the grippier rubber maybe slowed them slightly (not that it makes much sense but, at 320tpi, they should be quicker than the 150tpi Rubino)

I also have been consistently slower with these over the CX... matter of 30-40 seconds over 10 miles or so

drlodge

Given my experience of the Paves now and what others have said, perhaps they are more robust than I first though (due to a slash very early on). So perhaps I will keep them on over the Winter and see how they go, especially since they are more geared towards the wet/winter weather...and then try some Open CX EVOs in the spring!

meanredspider

ugo.santalucia wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

I perceive them to be slightly slower than Rubino Pros (in that I simply couldn't match my Strava segment times with them on but could when I swapped) and assumed that the grippier rubber maybe slowed them slightly (not that it makes much sense but, at 320tpi, they should be quicker than the 150tpi Rubino)

I also have been consistently slower with these over the CX... matter of 30-40 seconds over 10 miles or so

Glad it's not just me then. I busted a gut on the same segment and was convinced, based upon conditions and effort, that I'd beaten my previous time only to come up short each time. Swapped tyres and was back up to speed. I'll trade a bit of speed for staying shiny side up in the winter/wet but don't run these in better weather.

sloppyschleckonds

I run Veloflex or Vittoria Corsa 23's when the roads are dry, 25's when plodding or inclement weather.

I have Pave 25's in tubs and clinchers and cannot recommend them highly enough

robbo2011

I have no experience of the Vittorias, but if you are looking for comfort, I would move away from GP4000s. I was using a set and decided to try the Mavic Yksion Pro tyres (23mm) that came with my Ksyriums. I was shocked at how much more supple and comfortable they are, despite them being more like 21mm tyres compared to the 24 mm real measurement of the GP4000s 23 tyres. There is just far less road buzz coming through meaning that longer rides are much less fatiguing.

So my advice would be to definitely experiment with some other tyres as you'll be surprised at the difference from the 4000s tyres. I have a set of Schwalbe Ones waiting to go onto mine, I have high hopes of them.

letap73

Thanks Robbo - I had the Mavic Yksion Pro on a set of Ksyrium SLS, they were actually pretty good - I sold the SLS onto a mate who wanted to get rid of the Yksion Pros - I might actually get them back off him to see how good they are on the new wheelset!

mattyarse

drlodge wrote:

The Pave is a lovely tyre due to its 320 TPI thread count, it gives a lovely ride better than the GP4000S

Sorry to take this slightly off course, but the GP4000s II is quoted as being 330 TPI so I am struggling to understand why this would account for any difference in comfort / ride quality against the Pave?

I have heard other references to Contis not being that comfortable compared to other tyres so keen to understand why that may be the case and if any value in moving from my current 4 Seasons (also 330 TPI) to Vittoria Pave? Is the difference really tangible?

Thanks in advance.

cycleclinic

I have been on them since January in clincher form and I have used the tubs are fair bit too. I have far more miles on conti GP4000s tyres and am now using open corsa but given the rate they are flatting at present I will be going back to the Trek shod with Pave's. They have cut this summer on one wet ride on a very flint strewn road. I have also noticed on both the tubs and clinchers the bikes are harder work than on the Contis (as hard work as conti gator skins) but the ride quality and grip offset that. I tend not to use the tyres for racing or fast rides good for solo training though. On the archetype rim the 25mm tyre comes up at 25mm and the 27mm tyre comes up at 27mm. In contrast the GP4000s II tyres in 25mm form comes up at nearly 27mm. So while I like the Open Pave's and Pave tubs a lot I don't like the high rolling resistance and they do seem more puncture prone (although I have only flatted once so far).

The Conti GP4000s is 110 TPI laid 3 times to make it a fake 330 TPI. A wide one is pretty good in the comfort game. I used 23mm GP4000s on 25mm rims and they spread out to 26mm, The ride was pretty good and I might go back to them. The Corsa's when the TT's are over at the end of the month are coming of and staying off till next year. You see there are my 3 favourite tyres. Yes to tyre experimentation as well what have you got to loose - nothing that's what. If you get something you don't like at least you know you don't like it.

ugo.santalucia

Went for a ride in the chilterns this morning with the Schwalbe One Tubeless 25... honestly, go tubeless and get them, they're awesome... same feel and speed as a pair of top end clinchers (think Corsa CX tubulars) but at much lower pressure (75-80 PSI) and without the drawbacks... grip also seems pretty awesome, although it's dry at the moment, obviously...

letap73

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Went for a ride in the chilterns this morning with the Schwalbe One Tubeless 25... honestly, go tubeless and get them, they're awesome... same feel and speed as a pair of top end clinchers (think Corsa CX tubulars) but at much lower pressure (75-80 PSI) and without the drawbacks... grip also seems pretty awesome, although it's dry at the moment, obviously...

Archetypes are not "tubeless" ready therefore how easy is it to convert them to be tubeless. What are the drawbacks?

ugo.santalucia

letap73 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Went for a ride in the chilterns this morning with the Schwalbe One Tubeless 25... honestly, go tubeless and get them, they're awesome... same feel and speed as a pair of top end clinchers (think Corsa CX tubulars) but at much lower pressure (75-80 PSI) and without the drawbacks... grip also seems pretty awesome, although it's dry at the moment, obviously...

Archetypes are not "tubeless" ready therefore how easy is it to convert them to be tubeless. What are the drawbacks?

It's pretty easy... two rounds of Stans tape 21 mm (= one roll does two rims), a pair of tubeless valves, that's all you need. Tubeless tyres are a bit heavier than clinchers + tube, let's say 50 grams per wheel, but when you ride them they actually feel like a better/lighter tyre... at least the new Schwalbe do! 8)

There are no drawbacks... all the imaginary faff involved is very imaginary... you fit them exactly like a normal clincher and the ones I have tried are not particularly tight either

letap73

No issues with tyre sealant then?

Did you put in the tyre sealant like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX5AOSSn3sA

ugo.santalucia

You can run them without sealant if you want to, they are air tight, but then you don't have puncture protection and basically it's like having a normal clincher. I injected 20 ml of sealant through the valve using the Stans injector... otherwise you can simply pour it in the tyre or pour it in the valve... the injector (basically a big syringe) is the "cleanest" way to do it.

letap73

At some stage I will try the tubeless conversion, however, I have seen available - the tech version of the Corsa - which apparently is the winter version of the Corsa for not very much, thus I may buy them for use for the next couple of months.

ugo.santalucia

letap73 wrote:

At some stage I will try the tubeless conversion, however, I have seen available - the tech version of the Corsa - which apparently is the winter version of the Corsa for not very much, thus I may buy them for use for the next couple of months.

As far as grip goes, they have used a compound that stays softer at lower temperature, but the rest is pretty much the same and I find Corsa completely inadequate when roads are damp... they are a magnet for punctures.
When I moved to tubulars, I used a pair of clinchers I had around for commuting in London... I normally hardly ever puncture, but with the Corsa SC it was almost one a day