Frame choice help? (long, sorry)
JonEdwards
Posts: 452
I currently own this beastie.
It’s about 12 years old, and I’ve owned it for 8. Groupset & wheels are about 10 years old, and I recently discovered cracks in the stem and the fork steerer.
So I’ve convinced myself I need a new bike. But having tried a few I’m really struggling to find anything I like as much.
I’ve tried:-
Planet X Ti Pro Road. Comfortable but dull. Possibly not helped by cheap finishing kit and heavy wheels. Just uninspiring
Planet X N2A. Oh my god fast. Lovely sharp handling. Just wanted to carve corners on it all day long. 10 minutes on it left my perineum feeling like I’d been violated by an angry gorilla.
Giant Defy Composite. Dull, dull, dull. Too high at the front. (this was a pretty low spec one, but it did nothing for me)
Condor Acciao. Amazingly plush ride. Too high at the front. Even though it had nice kit on, it felt heavy.
Condor Super Acciao. Better fit, stiffer. Again – heavy and whilst not as buzzy as the N2A, a far from comfortable ride.
Cannondale Supersix Evo Hi Mod. The closest so far to being “the one”. Light, zippy. Too much vibration through the saddle. Frame only is too expensive and the complete bikes with a real world price tag have a compromised spec.
Cannondale Synapse Hi Mod. Only a carpark spin on a bike that was too big. More comfortable (I think), but for the right size, the headtube is too long on paper. Too expensive again.
Enigma Esprit. Actually wanted to try an Echo, but the nearest dealer didn’t have one in my size. Was really looking forward to this, but it was actually rather uninspiring, both to ride and to look at in the metal.
So what am I missing? With the exception of the N2A (which had 50mm carbon tubs on) none of the bikes have wanted to “go” compared to my Roadster – they just feel heavy and inert under power (like they’d got soft tyres). Is this simply down to wheelweight? Except the Evo had Ksyrium Elites on, which are all but identical to my 2005 Ksyrium SLs. The Acciao - Ksyrium SLRs and the SA had Campag Eurus, all of which are of similar weight, but none of them had the sheer zip I was expecting from a really high end bike. One of the sales guys was wondering if it was because modern bikes are all too stiff? Certainly all the bikes I’ve tested have been stiffer around the BB, but is that necessarily a good thing?
Comfort wise, I have ~10” of skinny carbon seatpost stuck out of my Roadster frame, and I have a feeling this is responsible for a lot of the perceived comfort of my bike. All the “square” frames seem to have more like 3” or 4” of seatpost showing. Compared to my bike, most so-called "compact" frames, simply aren't...
I’m not a racer, but do like a racey-ish fit (I’m 5’10”, 10stone dead), although combined with all day comfort. I live on the edge of the Peak District and riding varies from hour lunch time thrashes to century+. I like climbing, I like descending more, don’t do much on the flat. (I’m also slightly, athough not excessively, weight weenie!).
So – ideas for frames with a 55cm TT, 13cm HT (excluding headset) or 16cm (full stack height)? I can justify £1500ish for F&F or £3kish for a full bike, but that would need to be sufficiently well specced that I didn’t spend the next year changing all the bits apart from the frame. No problem going second hand, although probably not for anything made of carbon (possibly paranoia here). Needs to be able to take some form of clip-on mudguard for winter riding. It’s going to need to last me a bare minimum of 5 years, ideally nearer 10.
(I can afford to spend more than that, but when faced with the reality of laying down Two. Thousand. Pounds. on a road bike frame, I just can’t do it. Hell, my current full sus MTB has an RRP of £1500 (I paid rather less than that), and contains an awful lot more expensively machined component parts, and an expensive shock (which would equate to the fork cost on a roadie). I reckon in current guise it owes me about £2.5k for a state of the art trail bike, so I struggle to justify more than that on what is a rather simpler device.)
Go on then, show me “The One”…!
It’s about 12 years old, and I’ve owned it for 8. Groupset & wheels are about 10 years old, and I recently discovered cracks in the stem and the fork steerer.
So I’ve convinced myself I need a new bike. But having tried a few I’m really struggling to find anything I like as much.
I’ve tried:-
Planet X Ti Pro Road. Comfortable but dull. Possibly not helped by cheap finishing kit and heavy wheels. Just uninspiring
Planet X N2A. Oh my god fast. Lovely sharp handling. Just wanted to carve corners on it all day long. 10 minutes on it left my perineum feeling like I’d been violated by an angry gorilla.
Giant Defy Composite. Dull, dull, dull. Too high at the front. (this was a pretty low spec one, but it did nothing for me)
Condor Acciao. Amazingly plush ride. Too high at the front. Even though it had nice kit on, it felt heavy.
Condor Super Acciao. Better fit, stiffer. Again – heavy and whilst not as buzzy as the N2A, a far from comfortable ride.
Cannondale Supersix Evo Hi Mod. The closest so far to being “the one”. Light, zippy. Too much vibration through the saddle. Frame only is too expensive and the complete bikes with a real world price tag have a compromised spec.
Cannondale Synapse Hi Mod. Only a carpark spin on a bike that was too big. More comfortable (I think), but for the right size, the headtube is too long on paper. Too expensive again.
Enigma Esprit. Actually wanted to try an Echo, but the nearest dealer didn’t have one in my size. Was really looking forward to this, but it was actually rather uninspiring, both to ride and to look at in the metal.
So what am I missing? With the exception of the N2A (which had 50mm carbon tubs on) none of the bikes have wanted to “go” compared to my Roadster – they just feel heavy and inert under power (like they’d got soft tyres). Is this simply down to wheelweight? Except the Evo had Ksyrium Elites on, which are all but identical to my 2005 Ksyrium SLs. The Acciao - Ksyrium SLRs and the SA had Campag Eurus, all of which are of similar weight, but none of them had the sheer zip I was expecting from a really high end bike. One of the sales guys was wondering if it was because modern bikes are all too stiff? Certainly all the bikes I’ve tested have been stiffer around the BB, but is that necessarily a good thing?
Comfort wise, I have ~10” of skinny carbon seatpost stuck out of my Roadster frame, and I have a feeling this is responsible for a lot of the perceived comfort of my bike. All the “square” frames seem to have more like 3” or 4” of seatpost showing. Compared to my bike, most so-called "compact" frames, simply aren't...
I’m not a racer, but do like a racey-ish fit (I’m 5’10”, 10stone dead), although combined with all day comfort. I live on the edge of the Peak District and riding varies from hour lunch time thrashes to century+. I like climbing, I like descending more, don’t do much on the flat. (I’m also slightly, athough not excessively, weight weenie!).
So – ideas for frames with a 55cm TT, 13cm HT (excluding headset) or 16cm (full stack height)? I can justify £1500ish for F&F or £3kish for a full bike, but that would need to be sufficiently well specced that I didn’t spend the next year changing all the bits apart from the frame. No problem going second hand, although probably not for anything made of carbon (possibly paranoia here). Needs to be able to take some form of clip-on mudguard for winter riding. It’s going to need to last me a bare minimum of 5 years, ideally nearer 10.
(I can afford to spend more than that, but when faced with the reality of laying down Two. Thousand. Pounds. on a road bike frame, I just can’t do it. Hell, my current full sus MTB has an RRP of £1500 (I paid rather less than that), and contains an awful lot more expensively machined component parts, and an expensive shock (which would equate to the fork cost on a roadie). I reckon in current guise it owes me about £2.5k for a state of the art trail bike, so I struggle to justify more than that on what is a rather simpler device.)
Go on then, show me “The One”…!
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Comments
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You've done a lot of research already, nice one. It sounds like you want a bike with the geometry and feel of a race bike. From the reviews I have read the Kinesis Aithein frameset does what you want for £500 from Freeborn. You could then spec it up exactly how you like.
People here seem to love the Scott frameset packages from Westbrook too.0 -
Possibly a predictable reply but have you looked at the Canyon Ultimate CF SL and CF SLX bikes?
I think these should be somewhat similar in ride to the Cannondale Supersix but cheaper. I find mine very comfortable through the saddle with the standard VCLS seatpost. If you want more comfort (and weight <80kg) you can select the VCLS 2.0 which does a superb job at reducing both saddle buzz and bigger bumps. I had problems with the VCLS 2.0 slipping so switched to the VCLS 1.0 after Canyon told me I was too heavy for the VCLS 2.0 (they don't recommend it above 80kg. I'm 86kg).
A size M(56) has a 549mm top tube and 150mm head tube (although the Acros headset may add a little more than usual). The frames are light and the full builds are very well specified for the price.
Depending on the reasons you found some of the other bikes dull, you may have the same opinion here. I'm biased and think mine is a great bike to ride but I'll admit the colour schemes are nothing to write home about!0 -
The numbers behind my current bike certainly imply "racy", but it's getting the comfort bit with it too.
I had got the Aethein on the "hmm, interesting" list. But haven't found anywhere with demo bikes in stock.
<<edit>> stupidly short head tube. Needing 20mm of spacers doesn't really appeal...
Likewise the Canyon Ultimate CF SLX has been on my radar, but had been discounted on the basis of no "try before you buy", and the large number of broken frames that seem to be about. Agree they're good VFM.0 -
Do you understand why the N2A was so uncomfortable? Sounds like you liked a lot of the feel of that bike, so maybe if you can work out what was wrong about it that will help you find a bike with the right feel and comfort?0
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Do you understand why the N2A was so uncomfortable?
Yup.
Every bit of it was massively oversized and had absolutely zero give in it. Especially the (frame specific) aero seat post. Consequently every tiny variation in road surface got passed straight through the frame and right up my yinyang.
The fit and handling of the N2A, with the plushness of ride of the Acciao, and that would be something quite special.
The other thing I probably ought to point out about my bike is that it has daftly short (390mm) chainstays. Where most bikes are around 405-410mm. This means it turns on a sixpence, and no doubt contributes towards the sharp feeling handling, which I like.0 -
This with an excellent spec and the option to buy another set of high spec. wheels on the cheap:
http://www.paulscycles.co.uk/m7b0s6p516 ... ACING-2013
The trigons at Cycledivision (just off the peak district) are fantastic - so good that I may sell my Supersix Evo himod (54) and keep the trigon instead. Cycledivision are an excellent operation.
http://www.cycledivision.co.uk/product- ... id158.html0 -
I agree the price is good on the 'dale, but
a) aren't there warranty issues with buying on line from Pauls with Cannondale?
b) the spec isn't all that great - nice wheels, agreed (but you'd *need* that second set for 10 months of the year. Finishing kit is mostly throwaway (ally stem and post on a bike with a £5k RRP????), and 10 spd SRAM Red is out of date, given how long I'd want to keep this for. Also it doesn't come with those gorgeous Spiderings...
...So I'd easily spend £500+ within months of getting it "updating" stuff. Even if it was for negligible benefit. All of a sudden something with a £2.6k price tag has turned into more like £3.5k.
The Trigons. Afraid they fail on the looks department, before I get any further. Horrible graphics, and I'm really not a fan of curvy frames. Fussy bugger, aren't I... :?0 -
just change the saddle on the N2APegoretti
Colnago
Cervelo
Campagnolo0 -
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I wouldn't say 'dale C1 parts are throwaway, exactly. They're certainly sufficiently light that they'll not be too big a disadvantage for as long as it takes for the "right" parts to appear.
Besides, wouldn't you consider swapping in the bars/saddle/post etc from your current bike?0 -
How about a BMC SLR01 or SLR02? I would think they would meet your criteria. Worth a look, anyway.0
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letap73 wrote:This with an excellent spec and the option to buy another set of high spec. wheels on the cheap:
http://www.paulscycles.co.uk/m7b0s6p516 ... ACING-2013
Mavic Ksyrium SLS Wheelset can be added for £400 on that deal.0 -
JonEdwards wrote:I agree the price is good on the 'dale, but
a) aren't there warranty issues with buying on line from Pauls with Cannondale?
b) the spec isn't all that great - nice wheels, agreed (but you'd *need* that second set for 10 months of the year. Finishing kit is mostly throwaway (ally stem and post on a bike with a £5k RRP????), and 10 spd SRAM Red is out of date, given how long I'd want to keep this for. Also it doesn't come with those gorgeous Spiderings...
...So I'd easily spend £500+ within months of getting it "updating" stuff. Even if it was for negligible benefit. All of a sudden something with a £2.6k price tag has turned into more like £3.5k.
The 10 speed Sram is hardly out of date. Most people will never notice having 11 speed over 10.
I'd look at it the other way, what are you getting for the money £3k for a Pro Team level Frame with the SLS Wheelset and 10 Speed Sram Red is pretty good.
Chainset is easy to replace in time. You could even run what it comes with and invest in something like a Rotor LT if it floats your boat.0 -
Self build on a Ritchey Road Logic frame. They're reduced at a lot of places at the moment. Should be up your street, its steel so not a dull ride like Ti, but also not super stiff like carbon. Plenty of liveliness to it at a guess. To me they look flexy, at your weight it'll probably be fine. Geo should suit aswell. For £2k you'd have a nice build with Ultegra 11 speed or Chorus (nearly)0
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on-yer-bike wrote:just change the saddle on the N2A
This! Can you not test the N2A using a different saddle? You'd be amazed how much of a difference it can make.0 -
How about an Argon18? You can get a frameset in your price range.
http://www.i-ride.co.uk/2014-Gallium-Pro-Ultegra-11-Speed-Bike.aspx0 -
Looked at a Scott Addict?0
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You have already tried a couple of Condors, so how about the Baracchi? It's £1800 for the frame and forks but may well be a good comprimise with regards comfort and position. Or to be really left field how about the Italia RC?RIP commute...
Sometimes seen bimbling around on a purple Fratello Disc or black and red Aprire Vincenza.0 -
A plug for the bike I've got:
http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/ ... -11-44563/
Overpriced new, but they occationally appear on ebay - I reckon the 54cm would suit you.
As an alternative, the frame is the same as this:
http://rittecycles.com/carbon/vlaanderen-2013/
http://www.westbrookcycles.co.uk/ritte- ... 14-p2414280 -
Sorry for the lack of replies. Had to do some work for once! (disgusting, I know...)
Saddle, I'd definitely transfer over. Bars are 10+ year old carbon items that are probably well past their use by date, seatpost is solidly seized in the frame (didn't know about not using grease on carbon stuff in them days!)Besides, wouldn't you consider swapping in the bars/saddle/post etc from your current bike?
It's not so much that there's anything "wrong" with the 'dale C1 stuff (I know nothing about it), but it's not exactly "right" either, and it always bugs me to spend money on not-right stuff, only to spend more money on right stuff later (part of the reason for all the dithering inherent in this thread - I can't make a decision I'm not 100% behind)
BMC is an interesting choice. Although the SLR01 is way expensive and the SLR02/Ultegra comes with mickey mouse wheels. '13 frames aren't too expensive though. Quirky looks, not sure if I get them.
I like the graphics on the Ritte frames (in fact I nearly bought one off a mate a while back). However they seem a bit overpriced for an open mould frame at full RRP. Scott's, whether road or mtb, I've just never got. Don't know why, I'm just uninterested in them.
The Ritchey I have been fairly taken with for quiet a while. Opportunity to try one is rather lacking, they're a little square/traditional for my taste, and at RRP, they seem a hair expensive for a Taiwanese welded frame made from "own brand" pipes (but then very few people are cheaper, so I accept I'm being picky here). In a similar vein, I'm also very interested by an Enigma Elite HSS, especially if they were prepared to build me a semi custom one with a properly sloping TT and a shorter ST.
Ultimately, as I'm sure we all know, it's not a completely rational/logical decision, and this is where I turn into an indecisive mess. No doubt many of the suggestions that have been made will "do the job", but if the idea of owning one doesn't give me the raging horn, it's not going to be the right bike for me.
Anyone know where I can get one of these cheap?
http://www.englishcycles.com/custombikes/irvins-v3-1/#0 -
JonEdwards wrote:BMC is an interesting choice. Although the SLR01 is way expensive and the SLR02/Ultegra comes with mickey mouse wheels. '13 frames aren't too expensive though. Quirky looks, not sure if I get them.
You can buy just the frameset too. At least you can over here (Switzerland).0 -
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Lots so options, you've tried some of the ones I'd suggest (dale evo). Canyon ultimate cf slx is a great bike for not a lot of cash, other option is the new cervelo r2. It's a great frame, you can upgrade the components as they run out but think that is coming with 11spd 105 so not a bad starting point at all0
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The Dolan Dual frame does.SloppySchleckonds wrote:letap73 wrote:
Would this take guards?0
