Brian Smith reaction to JTL
specialgueststar
Posts: 3,418
I was on another forum where B Smith openly bragged about JTLs performance ie putting SKY on their ar ses in the 2012 ToB
I had to ask how he had done that based on a patchy year starting with the pre-season south France stages then almost having a year off....and up against a team with a multi million pound budget and incredible resources
I got no answer
Now he's on Eurosport as an expert commentator and now involved with a team that has gained a lot of respect over the past year
I'm all for letting sleeping dogs lie - but is that taking the pi$$ ??
I had to ask how he had done that based on a patchy year starting with the pre-season south France stages then almost having a year off....and up against a team with a multi million pound budget and incredible resources
I got no answer
Now he's on Eurosport as an expert commentator and now involved with a team that has gained a lot of respect over the past year
I'm all for letting sleeping dogs lie - but is that taking the pi$$ ??
0
Comments
-
no it's not. he was manager of a continental team that won a race featuring world tour teams with a rider he believed in.
i hope he doesn't come on and justify this phishing with a response."Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago0 -
I hope he does.0
-
I'm not that bothered if he does or he doesn't[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
-
It might be interesting to sometime hear how it sounds from that side of the fence - finding a rider who seems to fulfil your wildest hopes, gives you a load of unexpected wins, but then turns out not to be the real deal after all (and the way you might overlook the warning signs because you're desperate to believe). I'm not sure we're likely to in this case, and certainly not with this particular line of 'told you so'.0
-
underlayunderlay wrote:It might be interesting to sometime hear how it sounds from that side of the fence - finding a rider who seems to fulfil your wildest hopes, gives you a load of unexpected wins, but then turns out not to be the real deal after all (and the way you might overlook the warning signs because you're desperate to believe). I'm not sure we're likely to in this case, and certainly not with this particular line of 'told you so'.
that's exactly what I thought - and he has the added insight of riding with Lance Armstrong on the 1994 Motorola team and discrediting Walsh's book against Armstrong
it would be a great insight for us not in the professional peloton to gain insight how a rider like JTL can come out of the domestic scene after a bout of ill health and rinse a world tour team .
I know its unfortunate now that all these irregularities have been exposed - but I wonder from a sporting point of view what input he had as an experienced DS on that team and how deflated he feels that someone was so ...dishonest
he must be gutted after all those accusations to think that some people think he knew what was going on in 2012
that JTL he was a crafty bastd keeping it hidden and all that0 -
If anyone finds comments by him on this one please post up. He certainly must say something. JTL should be calling him first as well to apologise profusely.Contador is the Greatest0
-
Did I miss the bit where he 'rinsed' World Tour teams? He had some great results in 2012 but can't recall him dominating a race with any strong WT teams. There's a bit of revisionist exaggeration going on. As for those questioning him suddenly reaching such a high level don't forget he made a pretty impressive debut into road cycling and was a 1st cat within 6 months of taking it up then racing for GB U23 within 18 months so unless he was on EPO from the start I think it's fair to say he was a talented rider prior to illness and injury. That original form was probably enough to make his comeback believable if he had been training seriously. I don't recall all that many people calling his 2012 results into question at the time.0
-
I agree although there probably was an element of wanting to believe he was clean - young British rider with a hard luck story decides to give the big time one more go. I dare say if he'd been Italian or Spanish and done some of the rides he did having apparently come from nowhere in a short space of time alarm bells would have been ringing a bit more on here.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
-
I hesitate to post this but I was back home in the SW and doing some riding and a lot of the club riders/bike shop workers, and (I sugar you not), the girl who cut my Mum's hair etc used to ride with JTL as a junior. It was mentioned somewhat frequently that he had a relaxed attitude to things like doping and also that his form was frequently all over the shop - which caused many of his competors to put those 2 together.
In fairness to JTL though similar stories can be told about almost any world class athlete as a junior, simply because they are usually so much more gifted than the rest of the "normos" they race. however, the suggestion that he may have made noises along the lines of, "you ll have to dope to be a cyclist JTL,"
"yup, probably...meh."
is a tad concerning...all just shadows and dust though Maximus...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Brian Smith was the major character witness for the defendant in the UKAD assessment so it'll be interesting to hear his views. Difficult for anyone to extract themselves when they've obviously invested a fair amount of trust.
There was talk of a 400K salary at Sky - not sure I can believe that but if that's the case it's been a worthwhile risk for JTL.0 -
For me the crazy thing with this story is that he actually had no reason to take anything leading into the World Championships, as his contract had already been secured. He then had a nice story at Team Sky about how they were overtraining him / issues with illness, which is why he looked so average. With hindsight it appears he'd done what he needed to in order to earn his contract and was then going to get a couple of years on a fat contract while underperforming and blaming the team. He was no doubt well aware of the fact that if he doped at Sky the biological passport would pick it up. Presumably he thought he'd got away with it in that very first test - maybe part of the reason for the binge drinking session was in the hope that it would cover anything that a test could show up.0
-
Art Vandelay wrote:There was talk of a 400K salary at Sky - not sure I can believe that but if that's the case it's been a worthwhile risk for JTL.
Risk? It's been a hugely profitable exercise! 16,000 in fines in the negative and 18 months of a 2 year 400k salary in the positive. So it seems like he's over 250 grand in profit there, not bad seen as that's the downside, the upside was him not getting caught. It looks like doping was a no lose situation for him...Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/0 -
Tone is difficult to infer without emoticons.jibberjim wrote:Art Vandelay wrote:There was talk of a 400K salary at Sky - not sure I can believe that but if that's the case it's been a worthwhile risk for JTL.
Risk? It's been a hugely profitable exercise!0 -
He got suspended by Sky at the end of 2013, so it's only one year's salary. Take out taxes, agent fees, lawyers fees, any potential lawsuits from Sky then there's not going to be a lot left even if 400k is true. He was selling his kit on Ebay. In return he is 30, probably finished in the sport and with a wider reputation for dishonesty. I'm not sure it's as rosy as you think.jibberjim wrote:Art Vandelay wrote:There was talk of a 400K salary at Sky - not sure I can believe that but if that's the case it's been a worthwhile risk for JTL.
Risk? It's been a hugely profitable exercise! 16,000 in fines in the negative and 18 months of a 2 year 400k salary in the positive. So it seems like he's over 250 grand in profit there, not bad seen as that's the downside, the upside was him not getting caught. It looks like doping was a no lose situation for him...Twitter: @RichN950 -
ddraver wrote:I hesitate to post this but I was back home in the SW and doing some riding and a lot of the club riders/bike shop workers, and (I sugar you not), the girl who cut my Mum's hair etc used to ride with JTL as a junior. It was mentioned somewhat frequently that he had a relaxed attitude to things like doping and also that his form was frequently all over the shop - which caused many of his competors to put those 2 together.
In fairness to JTL though similar stories can be told about almost any world class athlete as a junior, simply because they are usually so much more gifted than the rest of the "normos" they race. however, the suggestion that he may have made noises along the lines of, "you ll have to dope to be a cyclist JTL,"
"yup, probably...meh."
is a tad concerning...all just shadows and dust though Maximus...
I find all these experts on his up-and-down junior career a bit odd considering he didn't start road racing until he was 18 :? Also, as I said above he made 1st cat in a few months which suggests pretty much constant ups and his start to his French amateur career was impressive, making the podium in his first 10 races. The way his career was going people would have been expecting the sort of results he got in late 2011 to 2012 had it not been for the Epstein-Barr virus curtailing his career and then serious misfortune with injuries.
I'm certainly not defending him, he's been caught bang to rights but he isn't some talentless rider who was going nowhere before opting for doping. Maybe he felt he was just getting himself to the level he would have been at had he not had so much misfortune. I can imagine it's easy to justify something like that to yourself.
On the whole if you look at his early career properly I think you can understand people like Brian Smith and other domestic based pros standing by him before the full facts were made known.0 -
RichN95 wrote:
He got suspended by Sky at the end of 2013, so it's only one year's salary. Take out taxes, agent fees, lawyers fees, any potential lawsuits from Sky then there's not going to be a lot left even if 400k is true. He was selling his kit on Ebay. In return he is 30, probably finished in the sport and with a wider reputation for dishonesty. I'm not sure it's as rosy as you think.jibberjim wrote:Art Vandelay wrote:There was talk of a 400K salary at Sky - not sure I can believe that but if that's the case it's been a worthwhile risk for JTL.
Risk? It's been a hugely profitable exercise! 16,000 in fines in the negative and 18 months of a 2 year 400k salary in the positive. So it seems like he's over 250 grand in profit there, not bad seen as that's the downside, the upside was him not getting caught. It looks like doping was a no lose situation for him...
Presumably Sky could reclaim any payments made if they pursued a breach of contract. They are bound to have clauses in there stating that the rider confirms he has never used an illegal substance?0 -
Pross wrote:
Presumably Sky could reclaim any payments made if they pursued a breach of contract. They are bound to have clauses in there stating that the rider confirms he has never used an illegal substance?
I recall them having a penalty clause for violations and termination of contract, but not sure if it covered prior payments or just that year if banned.Pain hurts much less if its topped off with beating your mates to top of a climb.0 -
I think he kept delaying the hearing as he was still getting paid as he hadn't officially been banned, it was just team protocol to pull him from racing. He could then 'give away' his money/house/cars etc and declare himself bankrupt so he had nothing they could take off him.
I doubt there is anyone or at least very very few people who if doped wouldn't have anyone come out in their defence. He probably doped for the worlds thinking a good ride there(which he did) could get him a bit extra £££, he had got away with it all season so he would have expected to have been ok. Remember it wasn't this test that caught him, it was the realisation when comparing it with his results from the following year that caught him out, something he probably never considered.0 -
If he had continued to do whatever he had been doing in 2012 am I right in thinking that he would probably still be riding assuming SKY hadn't caught on to what he had been doing on the side? As his Bio Passport levels would still be consistent.0
-
No. It's not just about levels being consistent - it's also about how values relate to each other. An off-score is one such comparative measurement. And his was super-high.ad_snow wrote:If he had continued to do whatever he had been doing in 2012 am I right in thinking that he would probably still be riding assuming SKY hadn't caught on to what he had been doing on the side? As his Bio Passport levels would still be consistent.Twitter: @RichN950 -
ad_snow wrote:If he had continued to do whatever he had been doing in 2012 am I right in thinking that he would probably still be riding assuming SKY hadn't caught on to what he had been doing on the side? As his Bio Passport levels would still be consistent.
no, 'cos he was probably just doing straight up dodgy things - assuming that he wasn't going to be tested, remember that UKAD was so stupid that they didn't test the urine of the cyclists in the tour of Britain for EPO.Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/0 -
'So stupid' as in 'the race organisers couldn't afford it'jibberjim wrote:no, 'cos he was probably just doing straight up dodgy things - assuming that he wasn't going to be tested, remember that UKAD was so stupid that they didn't test the urine of the cyclists in the tour of Britain for EPO.Twitter: @RichN950 -
ozzzyosborn206 wrote:I think he kept delaying the hearing as he was still getting paid as he hadn't officially been banned, it was just team protocol to pull him from racing. He could then 'give away' his money/house/cars etc and declare himself bankrupt so he had nothing they could take off him.
but getting paid what though, presumably more than the 22k we can deduce was the Endura deal, but I thought most riders contracts were built around actually entering races and sharing bonuses for performing well within the team and or the team performing well, the sitting round on your backside pay cant be that much and it would be astonishing to think Sky continued to pay even a base salary once the case was actually brought to light and contested, else yeah you could just continually delay the proceedings, on that point havent these guys ever heard of video conferencing ?0 -
I find that quite strange. There's so much talk about the passport being longitudinal testing, establishing baselines, and that individual results can only be analyzed in the context of the rest of the passport values, yet the off score for this one test seems to be held up as falling outside any allowable range in itself. It doesn't refer to JTLs own baseline, it's pretty much a fail in its own right. I suppose they needed the other tests in order to qualify it a bit, but it's not clear how, or by how much.RichN95 wrote:
No. It's not just about levels being consistent - it's also about how values relate to each other. An off-score is one such comparative measurement. And his was super-high.ad_snow wrote:If he had continued to do whatever he had been doing in 2012 am I right in thinking that he would probably still be riding assuming SKY hadn't caught on to what he had been doing on the side? As his Bio Passport levels would still be consistent.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:
I find that quite strange. There's so much talk about the passport being longitudinal testing, establishing baselines, and that individual results can only be analyzed in the context of the rest of the passport values, yet the off score for this one test seems to be held up as falling outside any allowable range in itself. It doesn't refer to JTLs own baseline, it's pretty much a fail in its own right. I suppose they needed the other tests in order to qualify it a bit, but it's not clear how, or by how much.RichN95 wrote:
No. It's not just about levels being consistent - it's also about how values relate to each other. An off-score is one such comparative measurement. And his was super-high.ad_snow wrote:If he had continued to do whatever he had been doing in 2012 am I right in thinking that he would probably still be riding assuming SKY hadn't caught on to what he had been doing on the side? As his Bio Passport levels would still be consistent.
Is there a possibility that a high off score could be indicative of serious illness if it is consistent over time whereas a one-off can only really be explained by doping?0 -
RichN95 wrote:
'So stupid' as in 'the race organisers couldn't afford it'jibberjim wrote:no, 'cos he was probably just doing straight up dodgy things - assuming that he wasn't going to be tested, remember that UKAD was so stupid that they didn't test the urine of the cyclists in the tour of Britain for EPO.
With all the talk about storing/freezing samples of urine for later testing, could his samples not be tested now for epo use? Surely that would clear it up once and for all. Or did the tour of Britain simply not take any samples?0 -
...and yet.
There are still swathes of people who know the guy from the SW and beyond who cannot accept this.
I find it all bizarre.0 -
There are swathes of people who thought Rolf Harris was a great guy. Doping doesn't make JTL a bad person it just makes him a doper. His drinking excuse and the amount he claims to have drunk is so implausible for a lightweight athlete that I reckon it has convinced many who wanted to believe this might be a miscarriage of justice that he is guilty.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
-
But what if they came back negative, as they may have done as the detection window is quite small. Surely that would weaken the case.johnboy183 wrote:RichN95 wrote:
'So stupid' as in 'the race organisers couldn't afford it'jibberjim wrote:no, 'cos he was probably just doing straight up dodgy things - assuming that he wasn't going to be tested, remember that UKAD was so stupid that they didn't test the urine of the cyclists in the tour of Britain for EPO.
With all the talk about storing/freezing samples of urine for later testing, could his samples not be tested now for epo use? Surely that would clear it up once and for all. Or did the tour of Britain simply not take any samples?Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
But what if they came back negative, as they may have done as the detection window is quite small. Surely that would weaken the case.johnboy183 wrote:RichN95 wrote:
'So stupid' as in 'the race organisers couldn't afford it'jibberjim wrote:no, 'cos he was probably just doing straight up dodgy things - assuming that he wasn't going to be tested, remember that UKAD was so stupid that they didn't test the urine of the cyclists in the tour of Britain for EPO.
With all the talk about storing/freezing samples of urine for later testing, could his samples not be tested now for epo use? Surely that would clear it up once and for all. Or did the tour of Britain simply not take any samples?
You mean when they do come back negative, because you would have to be a complete idiot to a fail an in competition EPO test given the detection window is 10-12 hours0
