Felt AR or Scott Foil?

DKay

I've got a budget of £2000 and I want to buy an aero bike. I'd pretty much decided to put an order down for a 2015 Felt AR5 which comes with full 5800 105 and costs £1800 which is a good package. However, the Westbrooks deal for a HMX Scott Foil frame with the 6870 Ultegra electric pack for £1500 is also very tempting.

I have some Rotor 3D cranks, a 5800 105 chainset and calipers going spare, so wouldn't have to shell out for that if I got the Foil, although I'd need wheels and a cassette. Geometry differences between the two are pretty slight. I've disregarded the Giant Propel as the smallest size available has a 535mm top tube, which is too long for me (I'm only 164cm tall)

What so people reckon? Anybody got any opinions to share? I'd be doing a lot of mixed riding including social club runs, sportives, 30 - 50mile solo rides and I'd like to try the odd TT too. I'm pretty good on the hills, but fancy something to help along my flat speed. I already have a Cayo Evo, so racy geometry isn't an issue for me.

bendertherobot

I read, if I recall correctly, there's a discount code knocking slightly more off the Foil?

I'd say, since you have the other bits you need (but need bars, saddle, stem as well remember) that you might look back and wonder at not going DI2. The Foil, for me, looks nicer, though it would be better in a slightly different colour. If you can pick up stem et al for £100 or so you're looking at £400 for some nice tubs perhaps? The AR5 wheels don't look all that great to my eye.

norvernrob

The Foil isn't really a standard Aero bike as it's very light too. Obviously it depends on groupset etc but my 10 with Red and the standard 1650g wheels weighs 6.75kg. It's very stiff too which will probably make more difference than the actual aerodynamics, and it's a bloody good climbing bike.

I can't see me getting rid of mine for a long time.

Oh, and it's comfortable too - forget the reviews that say it isn't!

meanredspider

I'm reasonably quick on the flat and faster than average downhill - I can't measure a difference in speed between my Scott Foil Team Issue and my Volagi Liscio. My point is that you shouldn't expect the frame to make too much difference. The Foil is a good frame though and I've done a few centuries on it and haven't felt too beaten up (the Liscio is designed to be an endurance bike so it's a good benchmark for comfort). I love Di2

Grill

More expensive middle of the range frame with base groupset vs. cheaper top of the line frame with Di2...

Pretty easy choice if you ask me.

meanredspider

The good thing about buying a frame is that most complete bikes come with saddles and wheels (and tyres) you will want to change in any case sooner or later. Better just to go straight to the final article even if it's a little more expensive in the short term.

ror3h

I've just built up a Foil from westbrook, splashed out a bit (DA chainset, carbon tubs etc) and it came to less than £2,400. Not bad for a frame that is still being used by two pro teams! It's lightyears ahead of my old Boardman pro carbon, in every way. Definitely recommend it!

matt-h

What tubs did you get?

Matt

DKay

Cheers for replies all. Seems not much love for the Felt, but that's probably down to a lack of people owning one which makes it attactive to me, as it's something different and I see a lot of Foils around. Ok, it seems churlish for exclusivity to be a deciding factor, but it does matter to me. I also think the AR looks a lot more interesting to my eyes and the reversable seatpost is another plus point.

From what I've read, the frame of the AR beats the Foil (HMX or not) in most areas except out-and-out torsional stiffness. It's also worth bearing in mind that the current AR only came out last year and the Foil is getting on for nearly half a decade old with no improvements since the day it was introduced. Weight difference between the two frames is minimal. The frame of the AR is well worth upgrading from 105 at some future point and I'd just move the 105 onto a winter hack.

Di2 doesn't interest me that much, with it being case of never had it, so don't know what I'm missing and being blissful in my ignorance. I'm sure I'd love it though and being able to spec my own choice of finishing kit and wheels if I get the Foil is a big plus point.

Can't for the life of me decide...need to try and get some test rides which is going to be difficult.

Grill

Loads of AR's around here. In fact it's the bike most sold by my LBS. It's undoubtedly a good bike (most are these days), but it sounds to me as if you'd already made up your mind and simply posted in the hopes of receiving justification over your decision.

If you want an AR5, then by all means, buy one. But don't fool yourself into thinking it's a 'faster' bike. Having gone from a middle of the range TT frameset to a top end one, I can tell you there is no measurable difference. Even testers putting out 350w+ have trouble noticing the difference between properly aero frames, so an aero road bike isn't going to make a lick of difference to you or I. Cav won on the Foil and the Venge. He also won in the Dogma which is more brick-like than aero.

Also, the Foil is almost 25% lighter than the AR5. More than 'minimal' and more noticeable than the perceived aero difference. If you had really started this topic unbiased, then you'd already have ordered the Foil.

Slo Mo Jones

DKay wrote:

It's also worth bearing in mind that the current AR only came out last year and the Foil is getting on for nearly half a decade old with no improvements since the day it was introduced.

I find this argument very strange. What improvements do you expect in 5 years? Once you've got a light, stiff frame, it'll always be a light, stiff frame. What do you think the R&D budget is at a place like Scott? Or any bike manufacturer? It's not an F1 team.

thegreatdivide

Slo Mo Jones wrote:

DKay wrote:

It's also worth bearing in mind that the current AR only came out last year and the Foil is getting on for nearly half a decade old with no improvements since the day it was introduced.

I find this argument very strange. What improvements do you expect in 5 years? Once you've got a light, stiff frame, it'll always be a light, stiff frame. What do you think the R&D budget is at a place like Scott? Or any bike manufacturer? It's not an F1 team.

Indeed. There's been no change to the Foil because the Foil is still out performing the vast majority of 'aero' bikes on the market. They spent a fortune on R&D to nail the design.

thegreatdivide

And sorry for being a pedant but the Foil was released in 2011. It's currently 2014.

Grill

It took 18 months of R&D to make the Plasma 5 5% faster in a tunnel under optimum conditions than the Plasma 3. Scott doesn't mess around (which is why they have Simon Smart as their aero consultant; he's also responsible for the Foil).

matt-h

Grill wrote:

If you had really started this topic unbiased, then you'd already have ordered the Foil.

I think this sums it up.
Just buy the one you want.

I ordered a Foil last week by looking at it unbiased. Never owned a Scott, never seen the appeal but the price and spec made it a no brainer.

Matt

meanredspider

Whilst I accept the OP's desire to have something different (I doubt 99% of people on here have seen a Volagi Liscio in the flesh) it would be odd to make it the only reason to buy something whilst accepting that it's not as good as the alternative. The individuality of the Volagi appealed to me but it was the disc brakes (at that point pretty much the only road bike with them) that I wanted. And I don't think I needed to make any compromises (other than maybe the price of shipping it over) to get there. I wouldn't have bought it if there'd been another similar bike that was a bit more common but better. Still, it's the OP's money...

meanredspider

matt-h wrote:

Grill wrote:

If you had really started this topic unbiased, then you'd already have ordered the Foil.

I think this sums it up.
Just buy the one you want.

I ordered a Foil last week by looking at it unbiased. Never owned a Scott, never seen the appeal but the price and spec made it a no brainer.

Matt

That's exactly how I ended up with one

DKay

Grill wrote:

Loads of AR's around here. In fact it's the bike most sold by my LBS. It's undoubtedly a good bike (most are these days), but it sounds to me as if you'd already made up your mind and simply posted in the hopes of receiving justification over your decision.

Also, the Foil is almost 25% lighter than the AR5. More than 'minimal' and more noticeable than the perceived aero difference. If you had really started this topic unbiased, then you'd already have ordered the Foil.

Thanks for you reply, but please remember that I didn't state aywhere that I had started the topic unbiased. I clearly said that I'd all but decided on an AR5, before considering the Westbrooks deal. Previously, Westbooks didn't have my frame size in stock until I checked again yesterday, hence my post. I've looked into the frame weights and the HMX Foil frame and fork does indeed save nearly 300g over the AR5, which is a chunk of weight and does make a difference. Thanks for pointing that out as I'd assumed that the AR5 frame was a sub kilo item.

Slo Mo Jones wrote:

I find this argument very strange. What improvements do you expect in 5 years? Once you've got a light, stiff frame, it'll always be a light, stiff frame. What do you think the R&D budget is at a place like Scott? Or any bike manufacturer? It's not an F1 team.

I don't know what Scott's R&D budget is. But then, you don't either(?). F1 teams roll out upgrades every day, but I'm not asking for this to happen in the bike industry. In my opinion, the area of aero road frames is still a maturing area, where big gains are still being rapidly made in getting the best combination of aerodynamics, stiffness, compliance and weight. The Foil was publicly released back in 2011, but the AR frame was brand new out this year and three years is a long time in technology. The AR has better aero (not that this matters too much), excellent torsional stiffness and is supposed to have a much more compliant ride.

thegreatdivide wrote:

And sorry for being a pedant but the Foil was released in 2011. It's currently 2014.

Don't say sorry unless you mean it. My reasoning is that the F01 frame was unveiled and ridden by HTC at the 2010 TdF. The frame released to the public the following year probably changed slightly, admittedly.

Thanks to all people who replied with a non-judgemental, balanced opinion. I'm now leaning more towards the Foil. A shame that no AR owners are able to chime in though.

MRS, I hope everyone is still good over on fccuk.

meanredspider

DKay wrote:

MRS, I hope everyone is still good over on fccuk.

All good, thanks - Stan even resurfaced recently. Still the best and most knowledgable forum on the Web 8)

DKay

meanredspider wrote:

DKay wrote:

MRS, I hope everyone is still good over on fccuk.

All good, thanks - Stan even resurfaced recently. Still the best and most knowledgable forum on the Web 8)

Yeah, I need to check in more often. Starting today methinks, especially as I'm new car hunting!

iron_duke

Got the team foil as an upgrade to my 2008 felt f55. Personally very pleased with it and have not found it to be a harsh ride (thanks meanredspider for your advice, tried to pm back but seems to remain in my outbox :-(). Am sure this is helped by some pacenti sl23's from thecycleclinic.

Really like felt bikes and good friend has an ar2 and loves the ride. I doubt there are many who have ridden both and could give you a truly unbiased view.

Am sure whichever you get you will enjoy but the ability to spec your own bike and Westbrook deal would swing it for me.

vinnymarsden

I went with the Foil, basically , like everyone says…top frame design..excellent group….and had the fun of building it up..or getting it built up!!!

Good point by an earlier poster….the beauty of the Scott/Westbrook deal is you can choose all your own extra finishing kit…

Mine is just under 7k with Fulcrum 5s on it….I hazard I could go around 6.4 or thereabouts, but I always find the easiest way to lose weight off the bike, is actually lose weight yourself!!

The choice no doubt is that of the OP, but for his peace of mind..the Scott is a sweeeeeeet deal.

meanredspider

Iron_Duke wrote:

(thanks meanredspider for your advice, tried to pm back but seems to remain in my outbox :-().

Cool - glad it's turned out well.

undapressure

I have a Foil having owned a couple of boutique brands (lastly the ill fated Cipollini!!) and I doubt I could find a bike that constantly exceeds my expectations. Climbs superbly, accelerates faster than Usain Bolt, super quick on the flats and descents whilst still maintaining a decent level of comfort (for a race bike). If mine broke tomorrow, I wouldn't have any hesitation in ordering another, best bike I have owned by a considerable margin and the Scott warranty is reputed to be excellent.

DKay

Thanks for the further input guys.

mitchgixer6

Well as already has been stated you'll probably struggle to find someone who has ridden both bikes.

This year I bought an AR1 and built it with Ultegra 11s. All I can say is it's a fantastic bike. By far the fastest bike I've ever owned, but at the same time it was my first out and out race bike. It does all the same things people have said about the Foil. Extremely fast on the flats, holds speed easily and climbs well too. It also holds speed into a headwind much easier than my round tubed winter bike.

The thing that swung it for me was the reversible seat post. I do a fair bit of road racing and TT's and I needed a bike that would do both. With a set of clip ons and the saddle flipped forward I can get in a position that's very similar to a dedicated TT bike.

I'm the same as you and would consider upgrading the group set at some point in the future, but the 6800 works perfectly for me for now.

Whatever bike you choose you'll have a top frame that will last you for years, so have fun picking one!

DKay

I popped into Westbrooks today and talked to the people there. They were a great bunch of people so I've gone for the Foil Di2 option as I've never has Di2 before and I really like the idea of using sprint shifters on the drops. Now looking around for wheel and finishing kit options.

Thanks for all of the responses.

matt-h

good work!
Looking forward to a pic when you get it built up

Matt