Chinese Carbon Wheels

bianchibob

Has anyone any experience or dealings with "Cycling-cycling" on Ebay. They can supply a 38mm carbon wheelset for around £250.
The wheels are made from Toray T700 carbon fibre and use Novatec hubs with Mac Aero 494 spokes laced 20 front and 24 rear.

I have no idea or experience of wheels so was wondering are these wheels with this specification value for money ?

Any advice much appreciated

drlodge

Any Chinese wheel is a gamble. They may be fine in which case they're a bargain. If not, any warranty is useless due to the high return psotage costs.

Ask yourself - are you prepared to loose £250 if the wheels turn out to be rubbish?

bianchibob

That's why I have posed the question on here, asking has anyone got any experience of these specific wheels.

balb0wa

in September , the seller is responsible for all return costs , a new ebay feature! i kid you not

Many of our sellers have already started using eBay Managed Returns and are paying for return postage on faulty or not as described items. Starting from 15 September, we will introduce requirements that all sellers take responsibility for return postage on items which are faulty or not as described. The majority of our sellers are already providing a great returns service, but for those sellers who choose not to facilitate a return or provide/fund return postage for items that are faulty or not as described, we may refund their buyers without requiring them to return the item and in turn we will seek reimbursement from sellers.

HebdenBiker

These?

There was a thread recently with a user warning against using Chinese carbon clinchers, because his clincher rim failed under heavy braking. Some people said "what do you expect if you buy cheap", and others said that he should not have been using any carbon clinchers for that type of ride (I think he was descending Wrynose Pass when the fault occurred).

Ah. Here it is.

The truth is, there is no objective/scientific test data that will tell you that the wheels are safe/unsafe, or good value/poor value, or reliable/unreliable. Just anecdotes from some people who are happy with them and some people who are not.

It's a judgement call.

ilm_zero7

drlodge wrote:

Any Chinese wheel is a gamble. They may be fine in which case they're a bargain. If not, any warranty is useless due to the high return psotage costs.

Ask yourself - are you prepared to loose £250 if the wheels turn out to be rubbish?

its not just a financial gamble - you could be gambling with your life - at least a reputable brand will have QC and testing to Euronorm standards

sloppyschleckonds

ILM Zero7 wrote:

drlodge wrote:

Any Chinese wheel is a gamble. They may be fine in which case they're a bargain. If not, any warranty is useless due to the high return psotage costs.

Ask yourself - are you prepared to loose £250 if the wheels turn out to be rubbish?

its not just a financial gamble - you could be gambling with your life - at least a reputable brand will have QC and testing to Euronorm standards

Like Planet-X who just resell the same item with a 40% mark up?

Miles253

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

ILM Zero7 wrote:

drlodge wrote:

Any Chinese wheel is a gamble. They may be fine in which case they're a bargain. If not, any warranty is useless due to the high return psotage costs.

Ask yourself - are you prepared to loose £250 if the wheels turn out to be rubbish?

its not just a financial gamble - you could be gambling with your life - at least a reputable brand will have QC and testing to Euronorm standards

Like Planet-X who just resell the same item with a 40% mark up?

and liability to boot if something goes amiss?

HebdenBiker

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Like Planet-X who just resell the same item with a 40% mark up?

No. Planet X aero clincher wheels do not have carbon rims/braking surfaces. This is the weak point of the Chinese wheels, and is the reason why most clincher aero wheels (including Planet X) still have alloy rims.

rolf_f

£250 probably about retail price for the components - so no additional mark up for the labour. I'm sure that doesn't have any bearing on the quality!

cycleclinic

I have some chinese carbon rims which I used on sunday I knew it was going to be wet so what better way to test them than a very fast sportive in London (I rode around london afterward got lost back home to and got soaked several times). The braking with Campagnolo carbon brake pads was not much worse than any alloy rim I have tried. I was quite surprised in fact I did not have any trouble slowing down at all so a weak point I am not so sure any more, I used to think it was based on a bit of fear and limited testing but no I have tried them properly I no longer hold that view.

I am sure the record brakes high end brake pads help though as;
1) KCNC CB1 (crap brakes I know) and OEM pads on these rims gave awful braking
2) Record brakes/OEM pads on the these rims was better in the dry but wet weather braking was not great and the pads evaoporated on a damp ride
3) record brakes/campagnolo carbon pads on these chinese rims = good braking in the dry and very acceptable in the wet.

HebdenBiker

thecycleclinic wrote:

I have some chinese carbon rims which I used on sunday I knew it was going to be wet so what better way to test them than a very fast sportive in London (I rode around london afterward got lost back home to and got soaked several times). The braking with Campagnolo carbon brake pads was not much worse than any alloy rim I have tried. I was quite surprised in fact I did not have any trouble slowing down at all so a weak point I am not so sure any more, I used to think it was based on a bit of fear and limited testing but no I have tried them properly I no longer hold that view.

I am sure the record brakes high end brake pads help though as;
1) KCNC CB1 (crap brakes I know) and OEM pads on these rims gave awful braking
2) Record brakes/OEM pads on the these rims was better in the dry but wet weather braking was not great and the pads evaoporated on a damp ride
3) record brakes/campagnolo carbon pads on these chinese rims = good braking in the dry and very acceptable in the wet.

It's not braking performance that's the issue. It's the lip that holds the clincher tyre in place under high pressure is made out of carbon.

Anyway, I don't have the scientific knowledge to know whether such a wheel is safe or not. I know of one case of failure under heavy braking (clincher lip detached from rim on a high speed descent) but who am I to say whether the victim was stupid, just unlucky, or whether it's an inherent weakness of the product. I mean, there must be thousands of these wheels in use around the world, and if they had a high failure rate it would be all over the interweb.

What I do know is that almost all clincher rims are made out of aluminium for this reason.

NewTTer

HebdenBiker wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

I have some chinese carbon rims which I used on sunday I knew it was going to be wet so what better way to test them than a very fast sportive in London (I rode around london afterward got lost back home to and got soaked several times). The braking with Campagnolo carbon brake pads was not much worse than any alloy rim I have tried. I was quite surprised in fact I did not have any trouble slowing down at all so a weak point I am not so sure any more, I used to think it was based on a bit of fear and limited testing but no I have tried them properly I no longer hold that view.

I am sure the record brakes high end brake pads help though as;
1) KCNC CB1 (crap brakes I know) and OEM pads on these rims gave awful braking
2) Record brakes/OEM pads on the these rims was better in the dry but wet weather braking was not great and the pads evaoporated on a damp ride
3) record brakes/campagnolo carbon pads on these chinese rims = good braking in the dry and very acceptable in the wet.

It's not braking performance that's the issue. It's the lip that holds the clincher tyre in place under high pressure is made out of carbon.

Anyway, I don't have the scientific knowledge to know whether such a wheel is safe or not. I know of one case of failure under heavy braking (clincher lip detached from rim on a high speed descent) but who am I to say whether the victim was stupid, just unlucky, or whether it's an inherent weakness of the product. I mean, there must be thousands of these wheels in use around the world, and if they had a high failure rate it would be all over the interweb.

What I do know is that almost all clincher rims are made out of aluminium for this reason.

Apart from all of the many carbon clincher rims offered by many manufacturers, ie Zipp, Mavic, He'd, Flo etc etc etc
Please don't post total nonsense

kajjal

The problem is quality control. Known brands have an incentive to protect their brand names, a random Chinese producer selling direct may not have good quality control or really understand what they are cloning. Depends how you see the risk.

Calpol

My advice would be (based on months of reading these sort of threads!)
- If you are buying Chinese then seriously consider tubular wheels. This eliminates some of the inherent design flaws/weakness in Carbon clinchers.
- Don't ride ( clinchers) them down long or steep descents that require a lot of breaking
- buy from one of the more established vendors like Farsports, Dengfu, Hongfu, Yoeleo. They have appear to have a more sophisticated approach to customer satisfaction and generally have good online reputations.
- be prepared to write of your investment over a shorter period than if you bought from an more recognised OEM
- ask what a domestic wheelbuilder can build for you along similar specifications

I am not anti Chinese equipment. I am very happy with my Dengfu frame which now has 2000 miles on it and performs every bit as well as my Wilier. However I still am nervous about the wheel issue. So much so that I think I'll give the carbon clincher thing a miss. Disc brakes are coming to road bikes and it looks like that in a couple of years that could solve the braking, overheating issues that can be a risk with carbon clinchers. I think thecycleclinic recently built a set of disc cc's for his wife's bike - seems like a sensible way to go.

cycleclinic

2000 miles and climing on my carbon rims and no failures yet no rim wear either which surprises me. I have failed at sticking to using them for TT's and races only, failed misreabily. I have had a few rims from the same chinese supplier/factory and every one is as good as the last, consitant weight, extremely round, consitant ERD.... I simply cannot find any fault.

Branded rims fail under hard braking too if they are full carbon if the conditions are extreme enough. For the riding I do I have not got the rims hot enough in the U.K. I have never thought carbon wheels should be your only wheels and for proper mountain work a set of alloy rims will be safer than anything carbon produced even by ENVE. The alloy rims I used in Italy on one decent got too hot to touch (-10& to -20% gradient on a rough road with lots of harpins close togehter) I am not sure any carbon rim would have handled that.

The above advise about supplier from calpol would ease any pain (sorry about the pun) and yes I did put a set of carbon tubular (she hates changing tubes so why bother giving her tubes to change she'll only call out her personal breakdown service anyway) disc brake wheels on her bike. Also disc brakes are here now so no need to wait. Just been eying up the new 2015 Equilibrium Ti disc brake frame I am thinking 28H 38mm carbon rims on DT Swiss hubs just like I did for my wife hmmm sub 7kg of disc brake equipped bike.

Maybe thats what the OP should do, don't buy the chinese wheels and save up for a disc brake road bike and get some proper wheels on them.

HebdenBiker

NewTTer wrote:

Please don't post total nonsense

Sir, I stand corrected on the point, but please don't be rude.

My advice would be (based on months of reading these sort of threads!)
- If you are buying Chinese then seriously consider tubular wheels. This eliminates some of the inherent design flaws/weakness in Carbon clinchers.
- Don't ride ( clinchers) them down long or steep descents that require a lot of breaking
- buy from one of the more established vendors like Farsports, Dengfu, Hongfu, Yoeleo. They have appear to have a more sophisticated approach to customer satisfaction and generally have good online reputations.
- be prepared to write of your investment over a shorter period than if you bought from an more recognised OEM
- ask what a domestic wheelbuilder can build for you along similar specifications

I agree with all of this, with the proviso that, even though you may get better aftercare from Dengfu etc, this won't help you much if your wheel falls apart at speed

StillGoing

I think the issue is the aluminium braking band bonded onto carbon rim clinchers. The heat generated from heavy/unnecessary sustained braking causes heat build up and the banding breaks away. A carbon tub doesn't have any aluminium braking surface so doesn't suffer with heat build up. For fast descents where the rider is going to overuse the brakes, the recommendation from many is use either all aluminium clinchers or carbon tubs.

ugo.santalucia

philthy3 wrote:

I think the issue is the aluminium braking band bonded onto carbon rim clinchers.

Please post a photo of an aluminium braking band bonded onto a carbon rim

matt-h

Are they not alu rims with a carbon fairing bonded to them?

mfin

Most people (knobs) buying these rims only are buying them to obtain the look of a 50mm shod bike without the expense of a proper set and not being able to get past the mental block of changing tubs. The only people really buying them for any reasonable reason are those buying tub ones to try to build a half decent cheap beginners TT bike (which is completely fair enough as TT'ing involves very little braking at all).

charlie_potatoes

mfin wrote:

Most people (knobs) buying these rims.........

Blimey! :shock:

ugo.santalucia

There seems to be a bit of confusion. The overheating issue relates mainly to full carbon clinchers (Planet X don't sell them), alloy rims with a carbon fairing are to be treated as alloy rims and they don't have this problem.

Braking is friction and creates heat... if the heat is not dissipated quickly, it builds up. Carbon fibre is not very good at dissipating heat. Carbon fibre is a cured mixture of fibres and epoxy resin. Epoxy resin changes its mechanical properties upon heating and the critical point is called glass transition point, when the resin softens. Cheap rims use cheap resins, that have a low glass transition temperature. When the resin softens, the rim delaminates.

The second problem, again related to heat build up is that tyre pressure increases and can rupture the rim, if the rim is not particularly strong. That of course is a lot easier if the resin softens.

Even if the rim doesn't crack, an inner tube overheated can burst, which can be dangerous (note this could happen even with alloy rims).

High end rim manufacturers (notably Zipp, Mavic, Reynolds and Enve) have invested R&D (or they bought R&D from Motorsport) to manufacture rims with high glass transition temperature, which gives you a further 50-60 degrees range to play with before the resin softens, often enough to prevent all the problems above.

cycleclinic

Some Chinese manufcaturers use high temp resins too. While the above is all true it is actually hard to find out anything specific about the resin used apart from high Tg this does not tell us much as how high is high and it all depends what they are comparing them too. I don't think the modern crop of rims from hong fu e.t.c are using low Tg resins anymore whether they are as high as the resins found in Zipp wheels et.al is uncertain it may be or maybe not. It's not like Zip mavic, Renpoylds e.t.c actually tell us what the resin is and provide the data sheet for it. So until actual data of the resin used by various rim manufacturers is published the obscurity disappears I am reluctant to believe the marketing by the bigger brands and trust my own experience which tells me these many decent Chinese carbon rims for the more reputable suppliers (these have been listed earlier but there some others too) are fine for U.K riding.

Ultimately the entire bike industry is cloaked in obscurity which is how brands can establish themselves. Half the carbon frames you ride are made in china, columbus forks are made in china, which factory requires real detective work. Columbus forks are made in china and that factory may (almost certainly) also churn out rims, frames golf club shaft, fishing rods e.t.c and will own there own moulds for frames, forks, rims e.t.c that then get sold to Deng Fu, Hong fu or the various other intermediaries on the net. I strongly suspect but cannot prove at present the factory responsible for my wife's carbon frame/fork and post also supply Deda with the dittrissimo seat post as they have identical cradle and clamp parts, I now Deda get them made in china or may two separate factories are using the same cradle and clamp who knows. This is why people go with brands it does not mean they actually better.

Some proper testing is actually needed.

Bar Shaker

ugo.santalucia wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

I think the issue is the aluminium braking band bonded onto carbon rim clinchers.

Please post a photo of an aluminium braking band bonded onto a carbon rim

Have a look at the Mavic 40C for a picture.

I love my 50mm Far Sports. They wont get used on my forthcoming trip to the Cotswolds but are perfect for riding around Essex.

ugo.santalucia

Bar Shaker wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

I think the issue is the aluminium braking band bonded onto carbon rim clinchers.

Please post a photo of an aluminium braking band bonded onto a carbon rim

Have a look at the Mavic 40C for a picture.

I love my 50mm Far Sports. They wont get used on my forthcoming trip to the Cotswolds but are perfect for riding around Essex.

The C 40 have an inner alloy bed, quite a unique design and one that is meant to solve some of the issues

I reviewed them last year

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/con ... u-buy-them

Bar Shaker

Mavic 40C:

http://www.mavic.co.uk/wheels-road-tria ... _EAr9m9LCQ

I can't find the C 40 details.

cambidextrous

ugo.santalucia wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

I think the issue is the aluminium braking band bonded onto carbon rim clinchers.

Please post a photo of an aluminium braking band bonded onto a carbon rim

Many companies have alloy brake tracks on a carbon rim. Here is one for example.

http://pro-lite.net/track-wheels/vicenza-ca90-r#page

Having an alloy brake track adds life to the wheel (and also a little weight).

I have found that with my ZIPP 808 in the back and with my Reynolds in the front (both with carbon brake tracks) Equinox brand brake pads work the best. Bought them from ebay shipped from California.

ugo.santalucia

cambidextrous wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

I think the issue is the aluminium braking band bonded onto carbon rim clinchers.

Please post a photo of an aluminium braking band bonded onto a carbon rim

Many companies have alloy brake tracks on a carbon rim. Here is one for example.

http://pro-lite.net/track-wheels/vicenza-ca90-r#page

No, that's an alloy rim with bonded carbon... completely different thing