Lifespan of carbon frame

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  • drlodge
    drlodge Posts: 4,826
    A steel frame can be fixed, but a TIG welded frame is going to be impossible to fix neatly whereas its easier to replace a tube or two on a butted frame. Carbon frames lend themselves to easily fixing a small patch or repair, but complete tubes are more troublesome.
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  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    cyd190468 wrote:
    philthy3 wrote:
    cyd190468 wrote:
    I think the lesson for the day is that just because the Italians have been making high quality metal frames for 100 years or so doesn't mean they know squat about carbon fibre.

    If you're joking you forgot the smiley, but if you're serious; bollox. Italians know plenty about constructing carbon exotica. Some of them construct and assemble their bikes in house like Basso and Cipollini. I've ridden my Italian carbon frame in all weathers and on smooth roads and rough terrain. I've crashed it and the only thing to happen is the hanger bend (which they're supposed to do) and a bit of lacquer chip.
    Sure there are good carbon bikes made in Italy, but they are no better than anyone else at carbon. You traditionally pay a premium for an Italian bike in steel or alloy as they are perceived to be of superior quality. For carbon Asia and the US is where most of the tech comes from.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think anybody had mentioned the Italians in this thread until you had - so there's no lesson on that issue in the thread anyway!

    Besides, America doesn't seem to be making much carbon anymore and I think that Time and Look might have something to say about Europe not contributing much to carbon technology. And I don't think you necessarily do pay a premium for steel Italian bikes due to perceptions of superior quality - it's specific brands that command premiums, not frame materials.
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  • symo
    symo Posts: 1,743
    The answer to this question is "...not as long as Titanium".
    +++++++++++++++++++++
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  • DKay
    DKay Posts: 1,652
    symo wrote:
    The answer to this question is "...not as long as Titanium".

    As long as the titanium frame is designed and welded correctly.
    N
    N+1
  • robbo2011
    robbo2011 Posts: 1,017
    symo wrote:
    The answer to this question is "...not as long as Titanium".

    Wrong. Carbon does not have a fatigue limit, so a well made frame will last forever as long as it is not crashed.
  • adamfo
    adamfo Posts: 763
    robbo2011 wrote:

    Wrong. Carbon does not have a fatigue limit, so a well made frame will last forever as long as it is not crashed.

    True but I expect the resin will break down first. I know someone with a carbon front wing on his single sear racing car which is over 20 years old so that may take some time.
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    cyd190468 wrote:
    " It's a fairly expensive Italian brand, a price you don't want to keep repeating every 5 years " OP

    Fair cop! You know how many times I read this thread and failed to spot the Italian reference? I don't - I lost count! :lol:
    cyd190468 wrote:
    YI carbon production is still dominated by US and Japanese companies 60% between them.

    You didn't mention production - you were talking about the technology. Where the frame is made and where the technology comes from can be independant of each other. As an aside though, what happens to your number if you take out the Japanese companies? Who is still making frames in bulk in the States at the moment? I got the impression that most US companies outsourced to the Far East just like most European companies.
    cyd190468 wrote:
    " it's specific brands that command premiums" I would assume because of a reputation based on superior materials and workmanship.

    Yep - and that isn't necessarily related to country of origin. Italian companies can make good and bad frames in carbon and steel and the same can be said of Far Eastern companies. That one company appears to have had a quality control issue with at least one frame (the OPs) doesn't mean that we can conclude that Italian firms 'know squat about carbon fibre' :wink:
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  • gloomyandy
    gloomyandy Posts: 520
    Well Cervelo seem to think that a Carbon frame should last. Their warranty covers the bike "for as long as it is owned by the original owner". Having said that it does have a bunch of exclusions (none of which seem unreasonable, but who knows what "normal wear and tear" would mean to a lawyer!).
  • antsmithmk
    antsmithmk Posts: 717
    adamfo wrote:
    robbo2011 wrote:

    Wrong. Carbon does not have a fatigue limit, so a well made frame will last forever as long as it is not crashed.

    True but I expect the resin will break down first. I know someone with a carbon front wing on his single sear racing car which is over 20 years old so that may take some time.

    Tell them they need to try harder. A racing car that hasn't had a new front wing every few months hasn't been driven aggressively enough!
  • darkhairedlord
    darkhairedlord Posts: 7,180
    robbo2011 wrote:
    symo wrote:
    The answer to this question is "...not as long as Titanium".

    Wrong. Carbon does not have a fatigue limit, so a well made frame will last forever as long as it is not crashed.

    B0ll0X, CFRP doesn't have a fatigue limit, or endurance limit to be specific, not because its so indestructible but because it is unpredictable
  • robbo2011
    robbo2011 Posts: 1,017
    My understanding is that unlike metal, carbon fibre composites are not subject to fatigue failure.

    Are you telling me this is not true?
  • darkhairedlord
    darkhairedlord Posts: 7,180
    robbo2011 wrote:
    My understanding is that unlike metal, carbon fibre composites are not subject to fatigue failure.

    Are you telling me this is not true?

    Correct, this is not true. If it can crack and and the crack can propagate, it can fatigue.
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    cyd190468 wrote:
    My first post was a gross generalisation, but the technology of late has been mostly improvments in the fibre itself and resins. There haven't really been many great leaps in construction techniques. My point was that in reality a demonstrated knowledge of building something out of one material doesn't mean you automatically know how to build a similar structure out of a different material.

    Now this, even I can't argue with! :lol:

    Though whether in todays market many/any manufacturer is still trading on a reputation based on steel I'm not sure - it would be a long time to be benefiting from past success. Colnago is genuinely good at both and Pinarello (though no longer an Italian manufacturer) perhaps has a stronger reputation for its carbon rather than its steel (though whether that is justified or not is another thing).

    Respect for Italian carbon still seems mostly to be related to a few individuals rather than manufacturers as such.
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  • top_bhoy
    top_bhoy Posts: 1,424
    robbo2011 wrote:
    My understanding is that unlike metal, carbon fibre composites are not subject to fatigue failure.

    Are you telling me this is not true?

    Every material which is subjected to repeatedly applied cyclic loading is at risk of fatigue failure....carbon bike frames included.

    I'd expect an expensive frame to last more than 5 years but whether its a fair and reasonable expectation I do not know. However, based on my experiences over the years of things which have went wrong, I'll go out on a limb a bit and suggest that unless its a known or clear manufacturing defect, it'd be difficult (and/or expensive) to argue against that 5+ years isn't fair and reasonable. I have been known to be wrong :)

    I'd chalk it down to experience and buy another frame which, although may not be guaranteed to last any longer, won't break the bank every 5 years or leave a sense of guilt spending so much money on a bike frame....bikes are very much a case of diminishing returns and it needn't cost the price of a small car to still get a very good bike.
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  • reds99
    reds99 Posts: 46
    I have worked with carbon panels for the last 15 years. Carbon is strong when built with multidirection ply, a lot weaker with uni directional ply. Carbon is easily damaged, thats why everone who has a carbon frame treats it with kid gloves, hence why i said it is brittle. I hadnt a lot of interest in anything carbon until started biking. So somethings i cant help with, but i have built, repaired cured and anything else in the manufacture of carbon. I think the italian frames they have to source from a supplier as unsure italians are famed for carbon manufacture. In fact didnt team sky, GB etc go to the aerospace industry to help improve our performance in cycling.
    Lifetime warranty probably means against manufacture defects. Now you can test a frame after cure and if it passes it gets a lifetime, if not a scale takes place as to how long a warranty. Pure guess that by myself but it makes sense from what knowledge i have
  • robbo2011
    robbo2011 Posts: 1,017
    Time for the old Pink bike video again.

    http://www.pinkbike.com/news/santa-cruz ... t-lab.html

    Well designed and made carbon frames clearly aren't that weak or brittle...

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