I've a stiff hub when tightened

yadnom1973

I have a pair of shimano r500 wheels and one of the cones on the front wheel hub was damaged, the rest was fine. I could not get hold of this particular part as shimano had discontinued it. I did however find someone who found another cone exactly the same made by an american company that makes parts for just this situation. He removed the dust cap from the old cone and put it on the new one and It fit perfectly so I cleaned it all out, checked again to make sure there is no other damage and put the wheel back together.
The strange thing is that the wheel seems fine, spins freely, until I tighten up the quick release and then it becomes stiff. I check to see if there's any contact with the brakes, opened up the hub again to make sure everything is ok and it all seems fine. I don't understand how tightening a quick release would put pressure on the hub but that's the only thing I can see that would slow the wheel.
This is the second wheel I will have to throw away for the sake of a £1.50 cone and it really galls me so I thought I would post this here and see if anyone knows if maybe there is something I have missed.

ugo.santalucia

undo the cone a quarter of a turn or half a turn and it should be fine...

yadnom1973

I have the cone tightened as little as possible and the wheel spins better when like this and stiffer when I tighten it up more. This I'm used to and makes sense to me. I always tighten my hubs by hand just till they stick.
But the only way to make this wheel spin better is to loosen the quick release. I have never noticed my hubs stiffening when the quick release tightens. It makes no sense to me as it's all on a thread and it's not turning so I am confused how it's tightening? Have you ever noticed you hubs doing this? The only thing that I can think of is that the cone or dust cap somehow is not fitting properly but even then it should happen when I tighten the cone like you say, so I'm at a bit of a loss to know what's wrong. Is it a bad fit somehow, I don't know.

I have to nip out but will be back soon if anyone has any ideas what I'm missing.

bondurant

Try what Ugo said. The qr tightens the cone, so you need to compensate.

yadnom1973

Ok, so I just got back from a little ride on the bike and I can see what's wrong. I still do not understand how the quick release tightens the cone. If the cone is on the thread along with the washer and the nut with the grip then the only way I can see how they would move up and down the bolt is to turn on the thread.
I am wrong though as grease has oozed out of the side with the new cone, so it is not a perfect fit after all. I will have to throw it. It can join my last front wheel that's also in the cupboard for the want of a £1.50 cone. It hurts me to buy new wheels for such a trivial reason.

wishitwasallflat

The QR compresses the hollow axle which is what causes this, the cone doesnt move on its thread. It's perfectly normal to have to tweak the balance between cone and QR? IME of Shim hubs its also perfectly normal for some grease to ooze out at first if its been fully packed.

keef66

With QR wheels you should always leave a small amount of play with the wheel out of the bike, which is taken up when in the dropouts and the QR tightened. As wishit says, the QR is actually compressing the axle.

Getting it right just takes a bit of trial and error. Slightly too loose is better than the opposite which is what you've done.

I'd also agree that some grease escaping is normal, especially if you've applied it like I do in industrial quantities thinking more must be better The seal is really a dust shield to reduce the amount of crap getting in, it's not to keep the grease in.

tehtehteh

yeah I used to do this, just tighten up the cones until the point you can only just feel a tiny bit of play, then use the quick release to take out the rest of the wobble when the wheel is on the bike, works nice that way

Lookyhere

I must be in the minority here, in all the c&c hubs I ve stripped, inc shimano, I ve never ever had bearing slack taken up by locking a QR, maybe I need to apply more pressure
I do not see how a qr can compress an axle, they screw into alloy/plastic and if the sort of pressure applied could compress a steel axle, esp on modern alloy and carbon drop outs, its just as likely to strip the threads out on the qr adjuster, I would imagine its impossible to apply so much compression that the wheel becomes hard to turn.

the op seems to had a mis matched cone here - it being a non shimano one.

keef66

Here's (the first paragraph of) what Sheldon had to say on the subject:

"Quick-release hubs are trickier to adjust, because the quick-release mechanism compresses the axle slightly when it is tightened. If you adjust the cones so that they feel just right off the bike, they will bind up when you tighten the quick release. You must set the cones so that there is a little bit of play when the hub is off the bike, or when the wheel is installed with the quick release just barely tightened.

http://sheldonbrown.com/cone-adjustment.html

wishitwasallflat

Lookyhere wrote:

I do not see how a qr can compress an axle, they screw into alloy/plastic and if the sort of pressure applied could compress a steel axle, esp on modern alloy and carbon drop outs, its just as likely to strip the threads out on the qr adjuster, I would imagine its impossible to apply so much compression that the wheel becomes hard to turn.

the op seems to had a mis matched cone here - it being a non shimano one.

Either your using the worlds shitiest QRS or if you take a closer look at how they work ...

That said it may well be OP has a mis matched cone. OP look on SJScycles they are great for Shim hub parts.

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/shimano-shop ... e=1&page=1

mamba80

on my Fulcrum 0's I regreased today, the tiniest amount of play remained, after QR tightened, I tend to go along with the idea that this notion came about in the days of poor materials/machining and steel frames.
also, why wouldn't this theory apply to cartridge bearing hubs? there is no adjustment on those.

the r500 is a <£100 wheelset, hardly worth all this debate

Ben6899

mamba80 wrote:

the r500 is a <£100 wheelset, hardly worth all this debate

Well that depends what your finances look like. I have an acquaintance who might say the same about a pair of Carbones.

Lookyhere

wishitwasallflat wrote:

Lookyhere wrote:

I do not see how a qr can compress an axle, they screw into alloy/plastic and if the sort of pressure applied could compress a steel axle, esp on modern alloy and carbon drop outs, its just as likely to strip the threads out on the qr adjuster, I would imagine its impossible to apply so much compression that the wheel becomes hard to turn.

the op seems to had a mis matched cone here - it being a non shimano one.

Either your using the worlds shitiest QRS or if you take a closer look at how they work ...

shimano, fulcrum or Campag but I hold the adjuster nut and with the lever closed on the cam, turn the qr lever until the wheel is nice an snug in the frame.... idiot :roll: as I said, its a mis matched cone, not sure why you felt the need to repeat that?

keef66

Lookyhere wrote:

wishitwasallflat wrote:

Lookyhere wrote:

I do not see how a qr can compress an axle, they screw into alloy/plastic and if the sort of pressure applied could compress a steel axle, esp on modern alloy and carbon drop outs, its just as likely to strip the threads out on the qr adjuster, I would imagine its impossible to apply so much compression that the wheel becomes hard to turn.

the op seems to had a mis matched cone here - it being a non shimano one.

Either your using the worlds shitiest QRS or if you take a closer look at how they work ...

shimano, fulcrum or Campag but I hold the adjuster nut and with the lever closed on the cam, turn the qr lever until the wheel is nice an snug in the frame.... idiot :roll: as I said, its a mis matched cone, not sure why you felt the need to repeat that?

Please tell me you're being sarcastic and that's not really the way you tighten your QR skewers...

Lookyhere

keef66 wrote:

Lookyhere wrote:

wishitwasallflat wrote:

Lookyhere wrote:

I do not see how a qr can compress an axle, they screw into alloy/plastic and if the sort of pressure applied could compress a steel axle, esp on modern alloy and carbon drop outs, its just as likely to strip the threads out on the qr adjuster, I would imagine its impossible to apply so much compression that the wheel becomes hard to turn.

the op seems to had a mis matched cone here - it being a non shimano one.

Either your using the worlds shitiest QRS or if you take a closer look at how they work ...

shimano, fulcrum or Campag but I hold the adjuster nut and with the lever closed on the cam, turn the qr lever until the wheel is nice an snug in the frame.... idiot :roll: as I said, its a mis matched cone, not sure why you felt the need to repeat that?

Please tell me you're being sarcastic and that's not really the way you tighten your QR skewers...

surely there IS no other way????????? :idea:

Ben6899

Lookyhere wrote:

keef66 wrote:

Lookyhere wrote:

wishitwasallflat wrote:

Lookyhere wrote:

I do not see how a qr can compress an axle, they screw into alloy/plastic and if the sort of pressure applied could compress a steel axle, esp on modern alloy and carbon drop outs, its just as likely to strip the threads out on the qr adjuster, I would imagine its impossible to apply so much compression that the wheel becomes hard to turn.

the op seems to had a mis matched cone here - it being a non shimano one.

Either your using the worlds shitiest QRS or if you take a closer look at how they work ...

shimano, fulcrum or Campag but I hold the adjuster nut and with the lever closed on the cam, turn the qr lever until the wheel is nice an snug in the frame.... idiot :roll: as I said, its a mis matched cone, not sure why you felt the need to repeat that?

Please tell me you're being sarcastic and that's not really the way you tighten your QR skewers...

surely there IS no other way????????? :idea:

My sarcasm detector is just spinning; it can't get a reliable reading.

Ouija

All threads on nuts/cones are cut slightly larger than the opposing thread on the bolts/axles etc. The reason for this is if they were perfectly matched down to a few microns there would be so much friction between the two surfaces that you wouldn't be able to turn the nut (or cone, in this case). So any nut, on any bolt has a slight amount of jiggle to it. Applying a force on one side of the nut causes one side of the nuts thread to move until it makes full contact with the other side of the opposing bolts thread..... eliminating jiggle. A movement of a fraction of a millimeter (depending on thread size).

May not sound like much, but that movement on both nuts/cones when the QR is applied is enough to add significant pressure on the bearings. Cones should always be set so there is a slight amount of jiggle in the wheel when the QR's are not tightened so that they become perfect when the QR is tightened.