Avid Juicy 3.5 vs Avid Elixir 1?

cmachine

I'm probably going to answer this question myself but just sounding out for a few opinions. My 2012 Giant Anthem came with Avid Exlir 1 brakes. Front failed shortly after I got the bike and was able to get it warrantied. However, they are probably the worst brakes I've ever had (bar some Hayes that came on a Hardrock). They just seem to be off or on, no modulation or gradual braking on them and as a result makes the bike feel quite skittish.

As a test, I've fished out some ancient Juicy 3.5s I bought in 2007 and put them on. Much more robust lever (heavier) although adjustment with pads/rotor and those stupid CPS bolts can be a bit fiddly. The Juicy rotor seems a bit bigger too...at least more contact area.

I know Elixirs are supposed to be better brakes but I'm not seeing it, and the 1s are probably the entry level. I'm wondering if anyone had similar experiences.

Anyone know can you mix the Juicy levers with Elixir calipers? (obviously a bleed required). The Juicy 3.5 calipers are pretty bulky and pad replacement/cps adjustment is a pain. I've also had the washers fall apart over time.

Oh...and let me prempt all the "get Shimano XTs from CRC" posts. Yes, I know they are very good but a) they don't come with rotors and b) I'm looking a low/no-budget solution. Cheers all.

CitizenLee

I can't offer any help I'm afraid, just commenting to say I love that this place has become so predictable that people are now pre-empting what replies they might get!

Good luck with your brakes

cooldad

Get some Deore from CRC. Excellent and you don't need rotors. You already have some.

cmachine

lol @ these replies...it's almost like I have created an AI to answer my own question.

Let me be more direct...anyone mixed Juicy levers with Elixir calipers?

I think cooldad has responded to every post I ever made on this site! Good idea on the Deores. Had not thought of that ;-)

bikaholic

Yes, your proposed setup will work.

You can mate any caliper to the lever and it will work as long as you're able to get the end fittings right and the fluid type is mutually compatible (though, dissimilar fluid component types will also work for a short time).

cooldad

Not really. It might work, I don't know, but different levers pump different amounts of fluid - they need to match.

The Rookie

Measure the piston diameters, if they are the same or similar you can do it.

Or just fit decent brakes, you'll find they have Shimano written on them.

apreading

Juicy 3s were the WORST brakes I have had, ever. I had resolved to get rid of them and buy shimano but then bought a hybrid with Elixir 1s on - they are sooo much better. Exactly the opposite of your experience! Liked them so much that I replaced the Juicys on my MTB with some second hand Elixir 5s, the BB5s on my sons bike with Elixir 3s and bought a spare pair of Elixir 1s for £15 each!

Sorry, cant answer the question though...

rockmonkeysc

Elixir levers won't work with Juicy calipers. They displace too much fluid. They will be either on or off.
Measuring the piston bore won't tell you anything, you need the bore and stroke.
Elixir 1s can be ok if well set up. Juicy 3s are just rubbish by modern standards.

ScareyJ

My Elixer 1's were very grabby after proper bedding in, Moving the Leavers to the other side of the triggers to create single finger braking has made them very controllable, I can still lock them if I need to, but no more unwanted lockups.

I did have to remove the gear indicators and make my own covers for the deore triggers though, took about ten minuets, but has been worth it.

cmachine

apreading wrote:

Juicy 3s were the WORST brakes I have had, ever. I had resolved to get rid of them and buy shimano but then bought a hybrid with Elixir 1s on - they are sooo much better. Exactly the opposite of your experience! Liked them so much that I replaced the Juicys on my MTB with some second hand Elixir 5s, the BB5s on my sons bike with Elixir 3s and bought a spare pair of Elixir 1s for £15 each!

Sorry, cant answer the question though...

Hmm food for thought, might go back & refit them. I got a new front elixir 1 so could move that pad to the back as other is bit worn. They ARE a much tidier designed lever & caliper & I do recall the juicys being a nightmare with rotor rub...not to mention pad replacement

cmachine

ScareyJ wrote:

My Elixer 1's were very grabby after proper bedding in, Moving them to the other side of the triggers to create single finger braking has made them very controllable, I can still lock them if I need to, but no more unwanted lockups.

I did have to remove the gear indicators and make my own covers for the deore triggers though, took about ten minuets, but has been worth it.

Hi, don't suppose u can post a pic of this setup? Would be keen to see what u mean.

The Rookie

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Elixir levers won't work with Juicy calipers. They displace too much fluid. They will be either on or off.
Measuring the piston bore won't tell you anything, you need the bore and stroke.
Elixir 1s can be ok if well set up. Juicy 3s are just rubbish by modern standards.

Err no, measuring the piston bore at the calliper tells you all you need to know, same bore is the same stroke with the same amount of lever movement, so if the lever works with one calliper it will work the same with any calliper with the same bore.

ScareyJ

Here you go:

cmachine

cheers! looks good. Will put the Elixirs back on this week and see how I go. However, if they become problematic may just get the Deores or XTs. I mean the price Avid charge for a bleed kit these days you could buy one decent Shimano lever/caliper for that alone!

kajjal

I used to have exlixir 1's , they worked well enough but kept needing slight adjustments. Replaced them with XT's which have more power and better control and require little if any maintenance. Deore's going by reviews would be similar.

mr_belowski

Juicy callipers *do* work fine with Elixir levers, because it's what I've been using on my hard tail after the Juicy lever assembly started to leak.

No issues with modulation or anything - they work very nicely, so I'd expect it to work OK the other way round too

rockmonkeysc

The Rookie wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Elixir levers won't work with Juicy calipers. They displace too much fluid. They will be either on or off.
Measuring the piston bore won't tell you anything, you need the bore and stroke.
Elixir 1s can be ok if well set up. Juicy 3s are just rubbish by modern standards.

Err no, measuring the piston bore at the calliper tells you all you need to know, same bore is the same stroke with the same amount of lever movement, so if the lever works with one calliper it will work the same with any calliper with the same bore.

No. The stroke is not always the same for the same lever stroke. It can depend on pivot/piston position effectively changing the lever rate.
If the piston is mounted near the lever pivot the stroke is shorter than if it's further away from the pivot.
Just looking at my old Juicy Seven it's obviously different to my wifes Elixir 1.

cooldad

RockmonkeySC wrote:

The Rookie wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Elixir levers won't work with Juicy calipers. They displace too much fluid. They will be either on or off.
Measuring the piston bore won't tell you anything, you need the bore and stroke.
Elixir 1s can be ok if well set up. Juicy 3s are just rubbish by modern standards.

Err no, measuring the piston bore at the calliper tells you all you need to know, same bore is the same stroke with the same amount of lever movement, so if the lever works with one calliper it will work the same with any calliper with the same bore.

No. The stroke is not always the same for the same lever stroke. It can depend on pivot/piston position effectively changing the lever rate.
If the piston is mounted near the lever pivot the stroke is shorter than if it's further away from the pivot.
Just looking at my old Juicy Seven it's obviously different to my wifes Elixir 1.

He said caliper, not lever.

The Rookie

I did, but you don't expect him to actually read what he quotes do you? After all right at the start the OP mentioned swapping one calliper for another.

cmachine

anyway...I put the Elixir 1s back on the bike with the new warrantied front brake and they are a good bit better than the Juicy 3.5, just the lever looks a bit cheaper and a bit plasticy. I noticed that the Elxir 1 do not come with CPS washers yet the Elixir 3 and above do.

Is there any advantage to fitting CPS washers to an Elixir 1 brake caliper? It looks like they will fit ok. What do they do exactly? Are they supposed to make alignment that little bit better?

Chunkers1980

Yep they are supposed to make alignment easier, but in reality I find they don't and it's best to let the pistons sort it all out. My E5s have CPSs so something must be amiss if you don't?

cmachine

nah the Elixir 1s come WITHOUT the CPS bolts, as their low end entry level Elixir. E 3s and 5s all have them though. I have some old/new cps washers so I was wondering should I fit them but to be honest in my experience in the old Juicy 3.5s they actually make it more fiddly.

Chunkers1980

If they don't require them then you're just moving the calliper to a different (probably incorrect) position

cmachine

yeah agreed. The bike came fitted without them and over time the things crack and fall to bits. I am not sure why Avid continues to use them....maybe it's just their "thing". Shimano brakes seem to work fine without them....and I will be going to Deores or XTs when i upgrade them next.