Ultegra 6800 - No Trim

Secteur

Hi,

I am used to riding 105 5700 which trims extensively and perfectly. There is no "click" when changing gears - just a soft push on the lever.

I recently got a new bike with Ultegra 6800 - the gear changes are a very definite "click" both up and down. I have found that the trim is almost non-existent, and it's a real pain.

I assume this is a set up problem - the bike shop perhaps have set it up wrong.

Does anyone have any advice on how to re-set up the front derailler from scratch so I can get some trim working.

Should the front derailler cable be installed at full tension, or loose etc?

Thanks!

cycleclinic

I am sure there is meant to be a trim function on 6800. Old 7403 DA had it. It must be an installation problem. Look at the park tools guide if you want to do yourself or go back to shop and ask them to fix. No point in repeating a very comprhensive guide is there now.

Jon_1976

Not sure if you know (apologies if you do) but 6800 has a different trim sequence compared to 105.

Semantik

The trim function on the front mech is largely to do with the cable tension to the front mech- try playing about with the barrel adjuster and see if this improves thing-wind it in or out a few times and see what difference it makes. You can guarantee it won't be a fault with the front mech or the shifter if they're new.

trailflow

This set up guide also applies to the 105 5800, Ultegra 6800 and Dura Ace 9000 front derailleurs.

Here's the Shimano installation pdf
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... 24&cad=rja

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The 5800,6800,9000 left shifters have a trim function on both the big and the small ring. So big lever and little lever. The trim allows you to move the FD cage slightly to eliminate chain rub.

To set up the 5800,6800,9000 front derailleurs correctly an inline barrel adjuster or frame barrel adjuster should be used. It will make set up much easier. if you dont have one, install one.

Also make sure you don't have too many or not enough spacers (if needed) behind any bottom bracket cups. Check the recommendation for your bb shell width. As this may throw your chainline off.

Start over.

1. Unhook the cable.
Unwind the support bolt (not needed for a clamp-on FD).
Screw the barrel adjuster fully in. Then back it off abit.
Shift the RD onto the smallest cog (highest gear).
Unwind the high limit screw 1 full turn.
Down click the left shift lever into its lowest position. Press the small lever 4 times

2. Set the height of the FD 2-5mm above the big chain ring. At the same time, toe the rear edge of FD cage in around 3-5mm and clamp. (If it is the clamp-on version FD there is no need to toe in, just align the cage with the big chainring teeth)

3. Turn the support bolt inwards until the bottom rear edge of FD cage is parallel to the big ring outer edge. (If it is the clamp-on version FD skip this step) The support bolt is a small screw that pushes up against the seat tube to add stiffness to the front derailleur when shifting. It also moves the front cage outwards as you screw it in. See page 8 of the pdf below
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... 24&cad=rja

4. (with the cable still unhooked) Turn the low limit screw inwards until the outer side of the FD cage is positioned just further than the outer flat edge of the big chainring.

5. Pull the cable semi tight and clamp.

6. Shift the rear derailleur into the biggest cog on the cassette. (lowest gear)

7. Unwind the low limit screw until the inner side (plastic plate) of the FD cage no longer touches the chain and the gap is around 1mm. (you may need to push the FD towards the frame then set the gap)

8. Shift the rear derailleur onto the smalllest cog (highest gear).

9. Slowly shift the FD up onto the big ring (Do it carefully as the chain may over shoot and get thrown over the big ring). Once the chain is on the big ring. Look at the gap between the FD cage and chain. both sides.

Turn the crank to check for any rub. if it is rubbing on the inner side of the cage,slowly wind the barrel adjuster inwards until there is no rub.

If it is rubbing on the outer side of the cage,slowly wind the barrel adjuster outwards until there is no rub.

When gap between the FD outer side of the cage and chain is 0.5 -1mm. Turn the high limit screw inwards until it just touches the stop.

You may not need to touch the barrel ajuster at all. If there is large gap between the FD outer side of the cage and chain after shifting onto the large chainring. Just turn the high limit screw inwards (so the cage moves inwards) until the gap is 0.5 -1mm and not rubbing if you spin the crank.

10. Now go through all the gears and check the small ring trim setting. If the trim doesn't feel very positive. Dis-engage the trim and add abit more tension with the barrel adjuster and re-try the trim.

Bozman

I've never really had an issue with Shimano FDs but the 6800 FD is a bugger to set up correctly, that little piece of plastic on the inner plate doesn't help matters and is best confined to the bin but with a bit of patience and swearing you get there

kettrinboy

Ive put a 46T big ring on my bike and with the FD at its lowest position it still leaves a gap of around 6-7mm above the teeth on the big ring as compared to the 1-3 mm recommended by Shimano but it all still shifts perfectly, it is more critical to set the top limit screw carefully though or else you can occasionally get an overshift, but with that done right everything works fine.

rowlers

Bozman wrote:

I've never really had an issue with Shimano FDs but the 6800 FD is a bugger to set up correctly, that little piece of plastic on the inner plate doesn't help matters and is best confined to the bin but with a bit of patience and swearing you get there

Got to agree on this - trickiest FD I've set up. Once it set up thought its fabulous.
Lots of cable tension is required I found...

Jon_1976

Bozman wrote:

I've never really had an issue with Shimano FDs but the 6800 FD is a bugger to set up correctly, that little piece of plastic on the inner plate doesn't help matters and is best confined to the bin but with a bit of patience and swearing you get there

Agreed. I made it even harder on myself by fitting it on a frame with no barrel adjusters (Giant Defy) and forgetting to order some inline ones :oops: I should have waited and ordered some but I really wanted to get out on the bike so made do without. Major PITA getting the tension right.

Secteur

trailflow wrote:

The ultegra 6800 front derailleur has a trim function on both the big AND the small ring.

When clamping the front derailleur make sure the gap between the big chainring and front derailleur cage is 1-3mm. (4-5mm can sometimes give better leverage). Toe the cage in very slightly (1-2mm) when clamping. Then use the support bolt to align the cage with the chainring. The support bolt is a small screw that pushes up against the seat tube to add stiffness to the front derailleur when shifting. It also moves the front cage outwards as you screw it in. (see page 8 of the shimano pdf below)

To set it up correctly the cable needs to be pulled fairly tight by hand (or pliers). Then an inline barrel adjuster should be used to pull it abit more.

So first , with the cable de-attached. put the chain on the small front ring and 25t (or biggest) back cog. - Make sure to click the downshift lever into its lowest postion.

adjust the inner limit screw (closest to the frame on the front derailleur) so the gap is 0.5/1mm from the chain.

Clamp the cable. (tight as you can with hands or pliers). Then shift the chain onto the 11t cog at the back, and shift the front onto the big ring.

Then wind the inline barrel adjuster (adding more cable tension) until there is a 0.5/1mm gap between the inner front cage and chain.

Then wind the outer limit screw in until it just touches the stop. (start off with the outer limit screwed almost fully out)

Now it should all be set. Check all gears and trim settings.

On the small chainring trim you can still nudge it a little further after the click. Nudge it too far and it will shift up into the big ring.

The 11t and 12t cog will always rub (when still in the small ring). This is cross chaining.

Read this. Shimano 6800 front derailleur set up guide.
http://si.shimano.com/php/download.php? ... 03-ENG.pdf

Fantastic,

Thank you so much for taking the time to write all this! I will print it off and follow it word-for-word this weekend & will report back after that.

Thanks again!

keefsloan

FWIW, I have my Dolan (ultra 6700 10spd) set up with no in-line adjuster for the FD (I actually forgot to install it when I re-cabled recently). It means that I can't trim when on the 39/11 combination, but I'd be cross-chaining by then anyway so would have moved to the 53 ring. I can still trim downwards if needed (so on the 53/28 combination, if I was ever tempted to use that, then I could drop the FD down a click) but, again, I'd be cross-chaining so would already have moved to the 39 ring anyway. Obviously I can't comment on the 6800 system but, for my use, I don't miss / don't need an inline adjuster because I don't need to trim the front mech.

Secteur

keefsloan wrote:

I don't need to trim the front mech.

I find that in the local undulating terrain, I often use [small ring x 3rd / 4th smallest sprocket], and I get significant chain rub from the 4th smallest cog thru to the 11T cog, so although I never use [small ring x 1st / 2nd smallest sprocket], I do use 3rd / 4th for short periods and this working trim would be welcome.

Also, as a matter of principal, I can't have perfect wide-ranging trim on my 105 5700 bike and no trim at all on my fancy carbon Ultegra 6800 bike!

I have still to find time to work on it, but will report back when I do get chance

Winchman

I've got a Domane 4.7 with Ultegra 6800. The bike is great, particularly on long rides, apart from the drivetrain. This is proving a devil to set up and keep set up. It's been back to my LBS 4 times for adjustment. When it comes out it is usually set up so that it's quiet on the small ring and all but the small sprocket, and also on the large ring and all but the 2 largest sprockets (trim function being used). This setup is ok and I'm happy with it.

However, after not a very long run it will start making drivetrain noise in different ring and sprocket combinations. For example, there was noise from the 6th sprocket with both rings today, and also with the large ring and smaller sprockets. Some of this can be got rid of by using the trim function, but at times I end up changing rings and trimming far too much, and losing the plot (not good in a tight group). My LBS often mentions cable stretch but how much can it stretch? Overall, I'm not impressed with the drivetrain to put it mildly!

Any thoughts as to what is normal (ie what I should expect when it comes out of the LBS), and what might be going on would be appreciated.

Semantik

Winchman wrote:

I've got a Domane 4.7 with Ultegra 6800. The bike is great, particularly on long rides, apart from the drivetrain. This is proving a devil to set up and keep set up. It's been back to my LBS 4 times for adjustment. When it comes out it is usually set up so that it's quiet on the small ring and all but the small sprocket, and also on the large ring and all but the 2 largest sprockets (trim function being used). This setup is ok and I'm happy with it.

However, after not a very long run it will start making drivetrain noise in different ring and sprocket combinations. For example, there was noise from the 6th sprocket with both rings today, and also with the large ring and smaller sprockets. Some of this can be got rid of by using the trim function, but at times I end up changing rings and trimming far too much, and losing the plot (not good in a tight group). My LBS often mentions cable stretch but how much can it stretch? Overall, I'm not impressed with the drivetrain to put it mildly!

Any thoughts as to what is normal (ie what I should expect when it comes out of the LBS), and what might be going on would be appreciated.

What do you mean by 'drivetrain noises'? Do you mean chain clattering on sprockets (suggesting indexing needs adjustment) or is the noise coming from the chain rubbing on cage of front mech? (cable tension or limit screw
adjustment needed)
is the rear mech hanger straight? Has the bike ever been over on its side or has the rear mech had any kind of impact which may have bent it,even slightly?
There can't be any need for you to use the trim function if the chain is sitting on the 6th sprocket -presume you only need to do this when approaching Big ring/big sprocket combinations?

marin_maniac

Easy to set up when you know how to.

My experience is to set up Ultegra 6800 you need to do the following:

Position mech 1-3mm above chain ring

Set mech position so inner plate of mech cage when looking from above is 1/2mm out (closer to seat tube) relative to being aligned with chain ring.

Turn allen screw to align mech with chain ring

Set high and low limit stops

Check threading position of cable using cable attachment tool

Set chain to Big - Big on chain set and cassette

Make on click on front mech shifter to put in shifter trim position

Check distance between chain and inner guide of front mech (looking down chain line towards rear wheel)

Set tension on front mech till distance is small enough without rubbing between chain and inner guide of front mech

Without question to achieve this you need to be able to adjust the cable tension. In my experience its not possible to achieve the tension required just by hand.

Winchman

Thanks for your responses guys. I think the major part of the problem is that there are a few things not right and, given that the trim function is one of them, it's been hard for me to work out what's going on. Also my LBS has not been doing a full setup. I've borrowed a bike stand so that I can have be a good look and listen, and this has been useful. The hanger is straight and it's not been hit and the bike has not been rested on it. There is sprocket noise when going from small to large sprockets, and 3/4 turn seem to have stopped that. I think the trim function is nearly right but a small tweak might help at the small/large and large/small combos where there is some rubbing. I think the next steps are to do a road test tomorrow and then go through the set up process posted by Marin Maniac. I'll update in a couple of days.

Elfed

Hi, on my 5700 equipped bike the FD trim won't function if the cable tension is too tight.

On my 6800 bike the FD seems to require a lot more setup and more tension when in it's default position on the small ring.

I've inline barrel adjusters on both bikes which makes setting up far simpler.

Winchman

Did some work on the front mech yesterday and we did 50mls today - wonderful, no noise from either front or rear mechs. The bike's never been so quiet. Shame my LBS couldn't sort it during the 4 or 5 trips there...... Thx for your help guys.

marin_maniac

Always good to share the knowledge!!

Silence is bliss while peddling!!

raisinberry777

I'm just going to bump this thread as I found it mighty handy when setting up the 105 5800 FD (same design).

AlanW

Great thread, its answered so many of my questions!

timeserard

TRAILFLOW....thanks for this instruction. Very useful indeed and just set mine up as per this thread!
Much appreciated.

trailflow

Cheers. Glad to help.

paulmon

This thread should be pinned because the method posted by Trailflow is the perfect way to setup this mech. I managed to do it without a barrel adjuster, just. This is after spending 12 months on two bikes with a hit and miss setup.

With your permission I'm going to put the text you posted on a blog so any other poor unfortunate soul can be helped.

Cheers
Paul

trailflow

Sure no problem. If you do, use my original post and not the quoted version as its been edited quite a bit.

and chapeau for using no barrel adjuster. i really recommend you or anybody to still use one. As it really makes it alot easier.

liamcahill1

If anyone is still having problems (although those instructions are sublime), it may be worth routing the cable over the top of the fixing bolt to increase the initial advantage within the shift. Lennard Zinn is a God when it comes to these hacks. He also explains it in detail (link below). My shifting is finally sorted!

http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/03/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq/technical-faq-shimano-11-speed-front-derailleur-cable-setup_363733

northcliff66

I just follow this.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/05/video/ask-a-mechanic-shimano-front-derailleur-setup_369157