Why is Tony Martin not a GC contender?
Mr_K_Dilkington
Posts: 22
Watching Tony Martin's awesome win today got me thinking about him and about time trial specialists in general.
Compare Tony Martin to Bradley Wiggins. Both incredible at flat TTs. Both not too dissimilar builds (Tony Martin is 6'1", 75kg, Wiggo is 6'3", 77kg (this sounds really heavy, I know his competition weight is a fair bit lighter when he is riding for GC wins, but the point remains that they aren't massively different builds)). Both I imagine have a fairly similar FTP?
So why is/was Bradley Wiggins able to hang with the GC contenders in the high mountains but Tony Martin is not? Their sustained power output at FTP level and for shorter efforts is similar, their weight isn't massively different, so their power to weight ratio can't be all that dissimilar.
Just in general, why wouldn't decent time trialists who aren't units like Cancellara all be able to race for the GC? Not enough endurance over 2-3 hours? Less effective recovery over 1-3 week stage races? Different physiological demands of climbing in general (if this, what are the differences - for example, is a 1 hour climb at FTP massively different from riding a flat time trial at FTP?)? Losing too much power when losing the necessary muscle mass to ride for the GC? Something else?
Compare Tony Martin to Bradley Wiggins. Both incredible at flat TTs. Both not too dissimilar builds (Tony Martin is 6'1", 75kg, Wiggo is 6'3", 77kg (this sounds really heavy, I know his competition weight is a fair bit lighter when he is riding for GC wins, but the point remains that they aren't massively different builds)). Both I imagine have a fairly similar FTP?
So why is/was Bradley Wiggins able to hang with the GC contenders in the high mountains but Tony Martin is not? Their sustained power output at FTP level and for shorter efforts is similar, their weight isn't massively different, so their power to weight ratio can't be all that dissimilar.
Just in general, why wouldn't decent time trialists who aren't units like Cancellara all be able to race for the GC? Not enough endurance over 2-3 hours? Less effective recovery over 1-3 week stage races? Different physiological demands of climbing in general (if this, what are the differences - for example, is a 1 hour climb at FTP massively different from riding a flat time trial at FTP?)? Losing too much power when losing the necessary muscle mass to ride for the GC? Something else?
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Maybe he can't sustain the necessary effort for 3 weeks? Where has he finished in the GC on previous tours? Although he's probably never even been going for a top 10.0
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I thought about this as well.
Froome and Wiggins have lost weight yet retained power. Wiggins' transformation was clear to see.
Could Martin do the same? Obviously someone like Cancellara is too big, but Martin seems close and he can climb.
Froome and Wiggins seemed to manage their anorexia pretty well (at least for short periods) and won grand tours.
Could Martin lose the weight and stay healthy?
His ride today was fun to watch.0 -
It's just the weight. Wiggo was 69kg at the very heaviest for his Tour win. Martin loses power when he loses weight, Wiggo doesn't (at least not as much). The physiological reasons why are way above my knowledge base.0
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He possibly could be, just hasn't really had the chance. At T Mobile/Columbia/High Road and OPQS he's been part of a sprint train for Cav/Ciolek/Greipel and a TTer for Grand Tours. He's let off the leash for the odd stage and to go for short stage races which generally have a crucial TT in them.
Had Wiggins not have put in his performance at the 2009 Tour de France, which was a surprise to most, then he probably would never have been given the opportunity to lead a team in a Grand Tour. Wiggins was there to support Vande Velde who crashed out on stage 2, but I doubt Wiggins was considered to be plan B like Porte has been for Froome. He happened to be high up on the GC following a TT and got the team support as a result.0 -
He's also probably just happy to be a good professional and stick to what he is successful at and paid to do. It was a fairly big risk for Wiggins to convert from track champ to out and out road rider, losing the weight to do so.0
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Probably to do with recovery also. Pundits often comment on Contador's ability to recover.0
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Martin as mentioned can wrap up the GC on one week stage races that have a very decisive TT. I can think off the top of my head of recentish wins at Algarve and Beijing (twice?). He really battled for the GC at Tour de Suisse which is one of the longer stage races on the circuit and held his own on a mini-Alpe d'Huez zigzag sort of climb on the penultimate day but completely sank on a much longer and draggier climb on the last day, where Costa ended up taking it (again). So yeah, current physiology means it's a no go and I'm sure I've read recent comments from him that he's not particularly bothered about making the changes necessary to do so. His TTing and stage hunting seems to be his focus.0
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As well as the weight thing, Tony Martin also doesn't have an extremely rich German team wanting to create a "German winner of the TDF" so hasn't had anyone paying for loads of super strong domestiques to build a mountain train. The lack of turn of speed of these engines means they're quite easy to isolate if they don't have a team to make the pace so hard the attacks can't go.
It doesn't devalue Wiggins's success, but it does mean he has to win a certain way.Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/0 -
Interestingly when he first came on the scene he was seen as a potential GC rider. Particularly when he got 2nd on Mont Ventoux.
I doubt anyone really knows how his body would react if he tried to stay at the front end of the race for 3 weeks. But the real reason, as jibberjim has said, is that it would require an entire team built around his strengths. And which team has the money or inclination to do that?0 -
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I remember when he won Paris-Nice and with that Ventoux stage people talked about him as potentially moving up to GC, but the. He got really good a TT'ing and...Correlation is not causation.0
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Still can't get my head round the losing weight = losing power thing.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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TailWindHome wrote:Still can't get my head round the losing weight = losing power thing.
Imagine Greipel training to become a climber....0 -
TailWindHome wrote:Still can't get my head round the losing weight = losing power thing.
Because it's very difficult to maintain the training intensity whilst running a calorie deficit, and because the body is reluctant to give up muscle while it's being used - even if it's being used non-optimally, it's enough to keep it around, although the rate of loss will be individual, some may lose it a lot easier.
It's not that the power has to be less at a lower weight, it's just that obtaining weight loss at very low body fat would normally compromise training, which compromises power.Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/0 -
TailWindHome wrote:Still can't get my head round the losing weight = losing power thing.
I find maintaining power while losing 5-10% weight much more difficult to comprehend. It seems obvious that losing muscle = less power....a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0 -
Maybe he also decided that he would rather be the best in the world at what he does (time trials) than be one of those GC riders that comes 5-15th in Grand Tours without ever actually winning anything?0
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The same was said about Cancellara... he had a shot and won the Tour de Suisse in 2009, but never attempted to do GC on a 3 weeks race. I think it's got to do with the type of training you need to do. basically he'd have to lose a lot of weight, work really hard to be a contender, not be able to be competitive in his races and in the end probably still lose minutes to the climbers.
Moser (same type of rider) won a Giro, but the Giro was designed around Moser, with virtually no real mountains and long time trials.left the forum March 20230 -
More than fat is lost. Wiggo was 82kg as a track cyclist. He was not fat. GC Wiggo was not only leaner but also less muscled.TailWindHome wrote:Still can't get my head round the losing weight = losing power thing.
One thing to note about Martin though - he is already feebly skinny in his top half - my 7yr old lad looks like he has wider shoulders! I'm not sure there is a lot there to lose so he'd be losing a ton of weight from his legs in muscle.You only need two tools: WD40 and Duck Tape.
If it doesn't move and should, use the WD40.
If it shouldn't move and does, use the tape.0 -
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Rick Chasey wrote:Flat success = high power
Uphill success =high power/weight ratio
Can't be as simple as that though can it? I often think of someone like Leipheimer, who was a decent enough time triallist, which given how small he was you would think would translate into strong climbing, yet he could never really stay with the pure climbers.0 -
To those two you can also add uphill success being linked to simply being light - regardless of the power to weight ratio a heavier rider has to use more energy to drag his larger mass up the hill.Rick Chasey wrote:Flat success = high power
Uphill success =high power/weight ratioYou only need two tools: WD40 and Duck Tape.
If it doesn't move and should, use the WD40.
If it shouldn't move and does, use the tape.0 -
Great ride in yesterdays stage for sure, and a huge talent. I would have thought he'd be well suited to the classics. Although Im not a fan of his nickname, having his nick name 'Panzer Wagen' on the peak of his cap leaves a bad taste in my mouth, especially given where he is riding and having just ridden through Flanders just days earlier !Couple of 5 spots, a hummer and a handjob.....0
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physiosteve wrote:Great ride in yesterdays stage for sure, and a huge talent. I would have thought he'd be well suited to the classics. Although Im not a fan of his nickname, having his nick name 'Panzer Wagen' on the peak of his cap leaves a bad taste in my mouth, especially given where he is riding and having just ridden through Flanders just days earlier !
As opposed to Manx Missile, Tornado Tom or Pistolero? Just smacks of victor's justice if I'm honest.Correlation is not causation.0 -
Above The Cows wrote:physiosteve wrote:Great ride in yesterdays stage for sure, and a huge talent. I would have thought he'd be well suited to the classics. Although Im not a fan of his nickname, having his nick name 'Panzer Wagen' on the peak of his cap leaves a bad taste in my mouth, especially given where he is riding and having just ridden through Flanders just days earlier !
As opposed to Manx Missile, Tornado Tom or Pistolero? Just smacks of victor's justice if I'm honest.
And let's not start on Katusha shall we...___________________
Strava is not Zen.0 -
Daz555 wrote:
To those two you can also add uphill success being linked to simply being light - regardless of the power to weight ratio a heavier rider has to use more energy to drag his larger mass up the hill.Rick Chasey wrote:Flat success = high power
Uphill success =high power/weight ratio
Tell that to Indurain.0 -
Some good TTers are good climbers. Some good climbers are good TTers. But being good at one isn't an indicator at being good at the other, regardless of weight (or power to weight).0
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...and his doctor?Rick Chasey wrote:Daz555 wrote:
To those two you can also add uphill success being linked to simply being light - regardless of the power to weight ratio a heavier rider has to use more energy to drag his larger mass up the hill.Rick Chasey wrote:Flat success = high power
Uphill success =high power/weight ratio
Tell that to Indurain.
You only need two tools: WD40 and Duck Tape.
If it doesn't move and should, use the WD40.
If it shouldn't move and does, use the tape.0 -
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