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Viner Frames on planet X

warrerjwarrerj Posts: 665
edited January 2015 in Road buying advice
Can't find any reviews on frames/bikes that planet x are offering atm. Anybody got any experience or seen any reviews? I know Viner have a long history but know nothing about their current carbon offerings.
thanks

Posts

  • Monty DogMonty Dog Posts: 20,614
    Viner went bust, hence the low prices - grab them whilst you can. Viner Maximus was rated by Procycling a few years as one of the best frames around - hence why there's none left.
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,737
    I second what Monty says... Viner Maxima was a 3K + frame set. A friend of mine did the Tour du Mont Blanc among other things with a Maxima... he really liked it
  • MisterMuncherMisterMuncher Posts: 1,302
    The full build with Bora Ultras and 80th Anniversary SR is four grand. That makes the frame and finishing kit about -£600.
  • MccariaMccaria Posts: 869
    This isn't the Bertoletti built Maxima RS. This is the new Planet X version, still apparently built in Italy but it's a different frame to the original £3k frame. Also wasn't the Maxima a custom only build ?

    Check out the different finishing on the frame by the seat.
    http://road.cc/content/review/34912-viner-maxima-rs
  • chippykchippyk Posts: 529
    So should I put down the Ridley Noah Ultegra or Scott Foil 15 I'm about to buy and get the Chorus version of this?
  • LegendLustLegendLust Posts: 1,022
    Mccaria wrote:
    This isn't the Bertoletti built Maxima RS. This is the new Planet X version, still apparently built in Italy but it's a different frame to the original £3k frame. Also wasn't the Maxima a custom only build ?

    Check out the different finishing on the frame by the seat.
    http://road.cc/content/review/34912-viner-maxima-rs

    The new Maxima is built by Sarto by all accounts
  • Camcycle1974Camcycle1974 Posts: 1,356
    LegendLust wrote:
    Mccaria wrote:
    This isn't the Bertoletti built Maxima RS. This is the new Planet X version, still apparently built in Italy but it's a different frame to the original £3k frame. Also wasn't the Maxima a custom only build ?

    Check out the different finishing on the frame by the seat.
    http://road.cc/content/review/34912-viner-maxima-rs

    The new Maxima is built by Sarto by all accounts

    Just as good then really.
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 16,015
    If you note, they also talk about custom frame sizing so the ethos is certainly similar to the old Viner.
    LegendLust wrote:
    Mccaria wrote:
    This isn't the Bertoletti built Maxima RS. This is the new Planet X version, still apparently built in Italy but it's a different frame to the original £3k frame. Also wasn't the Maxima a custom only build ?

    Check out the different finishing on the frame by the seat.
    http://road.cc/content/review/34912-viner-maxima-rs

    The new Maxima is built by Sarto by all accounts

    Just as good then really.

    But this is maybe an assumption too far. Much of Viners old range was available in custom sizes - one of the distinctions about the Maxima was that even tube thicknesses could be specified depending on the riders weight, riding style etc. There's no mention of that here so this Maxima may be more akin to frames lower down in Viners old range.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • stuaffstuaff Posts: 1,735
    LegendLust wrote:
    Mccaria wrote:

    The new Maxima is built by Sarto by all accounts
    Where did you get that info from? Everything I've seen from PX (and the new team at Viner) implies that it's a relaunch of manufacturing in-house, and not just buying in frames from elsewhere.

    Agree with Rolf- they seem a bit cagey about whether it's really full custom like the old Maximas and RSs- I asked them that question on FB and said they'll take 'custom orders for frame and paint finish'. But then it is 1/3 price of the last (Bertoletti-built) RS2...

    Still interested though!
    Dahon Speed Pro TT; Trek Portland
    Viner Magnifica '08 ; Condor Squadra
    LeJOG in aid of the Royal British Legion. Please sponsor me at http://www.bmycharity.com/stuaffleck2011
  • LegendLustLegendLust Posts: 1,022
    StuAff wrote:
    LegendLust wrote:
    Mccaria wrote:

    The new Maxima is built by Sarto by all accounts
    Where did you get that info from? Everything I've seen from PX (and the new team at Viner) implies that it's a relaunch of manufacturing in-house, and not just buying in frames from elsewhere.

    Agree with Rolf- they seem a bit cagey about whether it's really full custom like the old Maximas and RSs- I asked them that question on FB and said they'll take 'custom orders for frame and paint finish'. But then it is 1/3 price of the last (Bertoletti-built) RS2...

    Still interested though!

    That's because Marco Bertoletti used to build the Viner Maxima and Mitus. I'm 99% sure that he's not building the new Maxima, and heard on the grapevine that Sarto are building the new version. Makes sense because Planet X had a tie in with Sarto when they made some top end frames for them.

    It is cheaper than the original Maxima - but then again it isn't the same bike. Still looks good value though.
  • stuaffstuaff Posts: 1,735
    LegendLust wrote:
    That's because Marco Bertoletti used to build the Viner Maxima and Mitus. I'm 99% sure that he's not building the new Maxima, and heard on the grapevine that Sarto are building the new version. Makes sense because Planet X had a tie in with Sarto when they made some top end frames for them.

    It is cheaper than the original Maxima - but then again it isn't the same bike. Still looks good value though.

    I knew Marco wasn't involved- Viner told me so themselves a while back. He's probably busy enough with Legend (and deservedly so) anyway. If it is Sarto, all well and good, they've got a good reputation. If they are being made in-house (as every comment from Viner I've seen implies), even better. It'll be a shame if they've dropped the same customisability the 'old' Viner offered, but I'm glad to see the brand brought back by people who clearly 'get' the history and reputation of Viner and what it meant to its fans. A stock Maxima, or one with custom geometry, is a definite notch above anything else at that price point. Full custom would of course be nice (!) but I doubt we could get that for £1700, even with PX behind it! Frame weight on the PX listing is very very wrong by the way- I was told typically 860g, which is in keeping with a pro-level frame if not bleeding edge. And we still have the Mitus, Perfecta and Gladius to come....
    Dahon Speed Pro TT; Trek Portland
    Viner Magnifica '08 ; Condor Squadra
    LeJOG in aid of the Royal British Legion. Please sponsor me at http://www.bmycharity.com/stuaffleck2011
  • NairnsterNairnster Posts: 602
    It also states

    Production version of Viner's famous custom frameset.
  • I am seriously considering getting one of these frames, and after talking to Planet X I can state for certain that Sarto has nothing to do with them. However, they are hand built in Italy using Dedacciai tubing with wrapped carbon joints. Going by the specification the focus seems to be more on stiffness than super light weight. For example, these frames come with the Deda RS2 fork, which is 420g as opposed to the standard RS which is 360g, so the emphasis may well be on offering a 'beefy' frame, a sort of carbon equivalent of the old Columbus Max steel frame set.

    (Alternatively, the quoted specification on Planet X's site could be wrong, which is not unknown for them. For example, take a look at the page for the Viner Salviati frame, for which they seem to have transposed the values for the seat and head angles!)

    Whilst it might be argued that these frames are intended to continue the 'spirit' and name of the original Maxima frames, they are not 'new old stock' Bertoletti frames or anything like that.

    For me the best bit is that these frames can indeed be ordered with custom geometry, and I have been told that at the moment the extra charge for custom is just £100.

    I can't really think of anything similar for the cash, especially with the custom option, which I feel might be the big selling point for me as most stock frames seem to have seat tube angles that are just too steep for me and/or have huge head tubes for that 'sportive' position, which I just don't want.
    "an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.
  • Geo555Geo555 Posts: 96
    I can't really think of anything similar for the cash, especially with the custom option, which I feel might be the big selling point for me as most stock frames seem to have seat tube angles that are just too steep for me and/or have huge head tubes for that 'sportive' position, which I just don't want.


    Hersh do custom geometry lightweight frames (and custom paint). The "Speed" is currently being tested for review by Road.cc nad should be up in a week or so.
    Photos here - http://road.cc/content/gallery/121041-hersh-speed

    Frameset prices start from £1250
  • BenderRodriguezBenderRodriguez Posts: 907
    edited July 2014
    Geo555 wrote:
    Hersh do custom geometry lightweight frames (and custom paint). The "Speed" is currently being tested for review by Road.cc nad should be up in a week or so... Frameset prices start from £1250

    I have tried to find out more about these but info seems to be hard to come by. From what I have been able to find out the 'Speed' is intended to be a lighweight climber's frame, coming in at £1350 for custom paint. Their other models cost rather more. For example, £1500 for a 'Vento' and £2500 for their 'Performance Pro'. These more expensive models are supposed to be stiffer and the top of the range models use a higher the grade of carbon fibre, although they don't state what other differences there are or even give details of what the standard geometry is like. Consequently, I don't know which one would be comparable with the Viner, although I doubt very much that it would be the 'Speed', given the weight differences.

    Some of the Hersh frames seem to use a press-fit BB30, whilst the Viner has a traditional threaded BB, which for me is a plus point. Also, the Hersh site makes no claims about the origins of the material used, other than saying that Toray carbon fibre is used. In comparison the Viner apparently uses a full Dedacciai tube set, including a Deadacciai RS2 fork and Dedacciai Z-123 rear triangle.

    http://www.hersh-bikes.co.uk/product/vento-race/
    "an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.
  • Geo555Geo555 Posts: 96
    The Hersh frames are "tailor" made to order by Sarto and are fully customisable, hence no standard geometry. If you want a threaded BB, you can have it. If you want Campag, you can have it.
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 16,015
    In comparison the Viner apparently uses a full Dedacciai tube set, including a Deadacciai RS2 fork and Dedacciai Z-123 rear triangle.

    Which suggests that possibly the rear triangle is of far eastern origin - that really needs to be clarified.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • BenderRodriguezBenderRodriguez Posts: 907
    edited July 2014
    Geo555 wrote:
    The Hersh frames are "tailor" made to order by Sarto and are fully customisable, hence no standard geometry. If you want a threaded BB, you can have it. If you want Campag, you can have it.

    Can you provide any concrete confirmation of this? I have looked on some of the Italian forums and even they do not seem to be certain who makes them. Perhaps Hersh have had frames made by Sarto in the past, but then again so have Planet X. Similarly, the claim that Hersh frames are made by Sarto might be just as much of a misinformed 'internet rumour' as the claim the the Viner frames sold by Planet X are. Perhaps only the £2500 'Pro' model is made by Sarto, which might explain why it is twice the price of the 'Speed', which does seem to carry an unfeasibly low price tag for a frame custom made by Sarto. Who knows?!

    Edit. It does seem that the £2,150 Hersh 'Trinity' could well be the Sarto D57...
    "an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.
  • BenderRodriguezBenderRodriguez Posts: 907
    edited July 2014
    Rolf F wrote:
    In comparison the Viner apparently uses a full Dedacciai tube set, including a Deadacciai RS2 fork and Dedacciai Z-123 rear triangle.

    Which suggests that possibly the rear triangle is of far eastern origin - that really needs to be clarified.

    Just the rear triangle? Aren't all of Dedacciai's composite parts made in Taiwan these days? Come to that are they even supplying frame tubes? They don't seem to be listed on their website any more.

    Whatever, I think that if the Viner does use Dedacciai tubing, then this might be a better option than some unbranded tube whose origin is unknown.
    "an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.
  • Geo555 wrote:
    The Hersh frames are "tailor" made to order by Sarto and are fully customisable, hence no standard geometry. If you want a threaded BB, you can have it. If you want Campag, you can have it.

    I was thinking of the following when I mentioned the lack of a geometry table for any of their frames.
    The Hersh Performance Pro benefits from the use of the toray 1000 carbon fibre, the highest grade available for bike building... To top things off the frame is available with full custom painting and Di2/EPS compatible. The Performance Pro frame set is also available in standard sizing.

    http://www.hersh-bikes.co.uk/product/he ... mance-pro/

    By the way, it could well be that the Hersh 'Trinity' is indeed made by Sarto, and is in fact the Sarto D57 model. Unfortunately, the 'Trinity' costs £2,150, not £1,250.

    http://www.hersh-bikes.co.uk/product/trinity-race/

    http://www.sartocycles.co.uk/d57_carbon_frame.html

    Whatever, I can't see any Sarto-made frame selling for £1250 via a third party such as Hersh, not least because Sarto themselves don't seem to market such a 'cut price' model!

    With regards the origin of the tubes used, Sarto say that they make their own tubes, so no need for Dedacciai to enter the equation for any frames supplied by them.

    I am sure that the manufacturers / marketing companies have some good reasons for making it so hard to find out the origin of their products (such as maintaining the maximum possible profit margins...) but it is very frustrating not being able to find out exactly what it is you are paying your hard earned cash for and what its origin was. It also leaves the lingering suspicion that, whatever you buy, you may well have been screwed!
    "an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.
  • Geo555Geo555 Posts: 96
    Geo555 wrote:
    The Hersh frames are "tailor" made to order by Sarto and are fully customisable, hence no standard geometry. If you want a threaded BB, you can have it. If you want Campag, you can have it.

    Can you provide any concrete confirmation of this? I have looked on some of the Italian forums and even they do not seem to be certain who makes them. Perhaps Hersh have had frames made by Sarto in the past, but then again so have Planet X. Similarly, the claim that Hersh frames are made by Sarto might be just as much of a misinformed 'internet rumour' as the claim the the Viner frames sold by Planet X are. Perhaps only the £2500 'Pro' model is made by Sarto, which might explain why it is twice the price of the 'Speed', which does seem to carry an unfeasibly low price tag for a frame custom made by Sarto. Who knows?!

    Edit. It does seem that the £2,150 Hersh 'Trinity' could well be the Sarto D57...


    http://www.telaioincarbonio.com/larte-d ... nio-hersh/ (translation needed)

    http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/page/tech ... 82POLHtLY8

    The Speed model is available in Italy for €1900 - about £1500
    http://www.hersh.it/telai-strada/telaio-speed

    The reason it seems cheap in the UK is that the guys that import these trimmed their margins to be able to offer a full build for the all important £2000 price level.
  • BenderRodriguezBenderRodriguez Posts: 907
    edited July 2014
    Geo555 wrote:
    http://www.telaioincarbonio.com/larte-d ... nio-hersh/ (translation needed)

    http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/page/tech ... 82POLHtLY8

    The Speed model is available in Italy for €1900 - about £1500
    http://www.hersh.it/telai-strada/telaio-speed

    The reason it seems cheap in the UK is that the guys that import these trimmed their margins to be able to offer a full build for the all important £2000 price level.

    Sorry, but I can't seem to see any confirmation that the 'Speed' is made by Sarto, even if it is clear that the Hersh 'Trinity' is the Sarto D57. If they are both made by Sarto what accounts for the £2,150 vs £1,250 price differential between the 'Speed' and the 'Trinity'? And after all, having one's entry level frames made in a different place to one's more expensive offering's is pretty standard in the industry. Just look at Colnago. That Hersh blog page you link to is also 2 years old and a lot can change in that time. (Only few years ago Hersh were just another company selling rebranded Dedacciai frames.)

    Do you have a Sarto model number for the 'Speed' frame?

    Thanks!
    "an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Rolf F wrote:
    In comparison the Viner apparently uses a full Dedacciai tube set, including a Deadacciai RS2 fork and Dedacciai Z-123 rear triangle.

    Which suggests that possibly the rear triangle is of far eastern origin - that really needs to be clarified.

    Just the rear triangle? Aren't all of Dedacciai's composite parts made in Taiwan these days? Come to that are they even supplying frame tubes? They don't seem to be listed on their website any more.

    Whatever, I think that if the Viner does use Dedacciai tubing, then this might be a better option than some unbranded tube whose origin is unknown.

    You are probably right re the source of Dedacciais tubing - but in this case it could be/probably is the case that the main tubes are cut and put together in Italy. They at least do need to sized to order - the rear triangle doesn't.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • Rolf F wrote:
    Aren't all of Dedacciai's composite parts made in Taiwan these days? Come to that are they even supplying frame tubes? They don't seem to be listed on their website any more.

    Whatever, I think that if the Viner does use Dedacciai tubing, then this might be a better option than some unbranded tube whose origin is unknown.

    You are probably right re the source of Dedacciais tubing - but in this case it could be/probably is the case that the main tubes are cut and put together in Italy. They at least do need to sized to order - the rear triangle doesn't.

    That could be it, with Dedacciai now only selling 'custom' main frame tubes to companies big enough to make the order worthwhile, rather than off the peg standard tube sets, as it used to.
    "an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.
  • cpk-14cpk-14 Posts: 3
    Hi everyone,

    I wanted to introduce myself, I represent Hersh in the UK and just picked up on your thread. I hope I can answer your questions and clarify any info you need.

    Hersh frames are produced by Sarto.

    I know it has the prices have been questioned especially the difference with the Speed and the trinity/performance. I want to point out that the Speed is a standard monocoque frame(produced in pre fabricated moulds) with only custom painting available. Currently the Speed is the only off the shelf carbon road bike Hersh are producing and a way of offering an Italian made frame at a more reasonable price.

    The Performance/trinity and the rest of the models on offer are custom builds, they use a tube to tube construction whereby each tube is cut, mitred, wrapped and finished. This process is completed all by hand and allows a greater control over the dimensions, carbon quality and building of the frames. Thus the price is reflected in this extra labour as well the higher grades of toray carbon fibre used.

    I hope this helps, but I please feel free to throw any other questions my way! :)
  • BenderRodriguezBenderRodriguez Posts: 907
    edited July 2014
    cpk-14 wrote:
    Hi everyone,

    I wanted to introduce myself, I represent Hersh in the UK and just picked up on your thread. I hope I can answer your questions and clarify any info you need.

    Hersh frames are produced by Sarto.

    I know it has the prices have been questioned especially the difference with the Speed and the trinity/performance. I want to point out that the Speed is a standard monocoque frame(produced in pre fabricated moulds) with only custom painting available. Currently the Speed is the only off the shelf carbon road bike Hersh are producing and a way of offering an Italian made frame at a more reasonable price.

    The Performance/trinity and the rest of the models on offer are custom builds, they use a tube to tube construction whereby each tube is cut, mitred, wrapped and finished. This process is completed all by hand and allows a greater control over the dimensions, carbon quality and building of the frames. Thus the price is reflected in this extra labour as well the higher grades of toray carbon fibre used.

    I hope this helps, but I please feel free to throw any other questions my way! :)

    Thanks for clearing up some of the confusion here. What a positive approach to customer service! I knew that there was no way Sarto could be putting out a customisable, tube to tube construction frame for the price of the Speed. If the frame is viewed as being an upmarket equivalent of the Dedacciai DR-15 or DR-19, then the price makes a lot more sense.

    It would be great if you could post the geometry for the Speed on the website, especially given that this cannot be customised. Mentioning that it is a monocoque frame might also help to avoid confusion and make the comparatively higher prices of the other models more understandable. A couple of questions.

    Does the Vento have an equivalent Sarto model number? Also, what is the weight? (This does not seem to be quoted on the site as yet.)

    Am I right in thinking that only the 'Performance Pro' has internal cables?

    Edit. Are the forks also made by Sarto?

    Thanks!
    "an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.
  • Geo555Geo555 Posts: 96
    I think the Vento is a Wind.
  • cpk-14cpk-14 Posts: 3
    No problem at all and sorry there isn't more information available. We're still working on the website so we will try to get as much of this info up as soon as we can but thanks for the feedback.

    In response to your questions:

    The Vento I believe is the wind model (I will double check this with Hersh in Italy) I've been quoted a frame weight of 960g.
    Am I right in thinking that only the 'Performance Pro' has internal cables - Yes it is available with internal cabling
    Are the forks also made by Sarto - I will need to check this with Hersh

    thanks and I'll do my best to answer anymore questions :)
  • cpk-14cpk-14 Posts: 3
    Hi again,

    To confirm:

    1. Vento is the Sarto Wind model
    2. Front forks come in from Asia
    3. frame dimensions are now on the website http://www.hersh-bikes.co.uk/product/speed/

    Hope this helps!
  • A quick thread resurrection!

    I didn't buy a Viner in the end due to the need to go for a custom geometry and the likely poor resale value. (Instead I bought a Time NSX in a sale here in France for about half the UK RRP - less than the Viner would have cost. Quality is fantastic and the stock geometry perfect for me.)

    Anyhow, I see that PX are now selling off these Viner Maxima's for a grand apiece. I looked at one 'in the flesh' as it were and I think that for this price they are a good deal, offering an Italian made, hand-built frame for only a little more than many branded but generic Asian monocoque frames go for. However, I'm really glad that I followed my instincts and didn't buy one when they were full price!

    http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/FRVIMARS30 ... road-frame
    "an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.
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