Saffron / Donhou bikes

jamie4759

Hello all. Have any of you fine folk in Forum Land experience of buying from Saffron or Donhou? The bikes seem really modern and nice and clean looking (IE you can get them without the lugs). I am thinking of going back to steel after using carbon for a couple of years. Would the newer steels (853 Pro Team, XCR, 953) be an adequate replacement for carbon, and good enough for fast club rides and crit racing?

ugo.santalucia

Yes it will, but plan in advance, 6 months wait is probably optimistic if you want a bespoke frame

P.S. they have been brazing and welding steel with no lugs for nearly 30 years... :roll:

kingstonian

Tom Donhou is finishing mine, should pick it up next week.

jamie4759

Thanks for the replies.

PS I get it about the lugs. I was merely making a sarcastic reference to the fact that the UK steel industry seems to be lug mad!!!!! Thanks anyway. I think Donhou is 15 months.

kingstonian

I should have given more than my abrupt reply above.

My bike will be 853 for the front triangle and Columbus XCR for the rear, with Di2 and disc brakes. Wait time has been 16 months. To be fair, I started to talk to Tom in Feb last year and paid a deposit then - it was a few days after I had a knee op and the wait time didn't bother me as I knew I had 12 mths of rehab in front of me.

rickeverett

What the F ??? :shock:

Donhou Land Speed Bike

kingstonian

Yep, that Land Speed bike is mental. If you go to his website you can see a video of the project - pretty cool to see how he went about it.

mikenetic

Saffron build queue is currently around the 6-month mark.

"Modern" steel will be fine for club and crit rides. Rapha JLT & Madison seem to do alright on them at an Elite level, and at a lower (but still very competitive) level Feather Racing look to be having some success too.

The UK industry is far from lug-mad, there are loads of people fillet brazing or (as in the case of Rourke for example) TIG welding. I get the impression that the newer builders are generally happier to use either technique than some of the older school.

twgh

Matthew at Saffron is absolute class.

He built me my new steel bike and it is a thing of beauty. The whole process was a pleasure. If you live in London and want to be involved in the build process and end up with a bike that is unique then give him a call.

If you have any specific questions let me know - as for price each build differs so you would need to speak to the builders direct.

drlodge

Rourke also build steel lugless using TIG welding, their waiting time is also around the 6 month mark.

jonny_trousers

I'd be intrigued to know how these bikes ride. Are they mostly objects of beauty built to fit the customer or is the ride quality up there with similarly priced frames?

t4tomo

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

I'd be intrigued to know how these bikes ride. Are they mostly objects of beauty built to fit the customer or is the ride quality up there with similarly priced frames?

You'll never know as owne runlikely to let anyone else ride their pride and joy, and when you've invested 12 months and a few grand into the hand built process you aren't very likely to turn around and say actually its OK but no better than a £1500 specialized/ giant/ trek.

jonny_trousers

t4tomo wrote:

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

I'd be intrigued to know how these bikes ride. Are they mostly objects of beauty built to fit the customer or is the ride quality up there with similarly priced frames?

You'll never know as owne runlikely to let anyone else ride their pride and joy, and when you've invested 12 months and a few grand into the hand built process you aren't very likely to turn around and say actually its OK but no better than a £1500 specialized/ giant/ trek.

Even if the ride is not exceptional, I can still kind of get why people with the money would buy one. It's a bit like buying a really nice watch: a ten quid digital will tell the time just as well as a 3 grand Omega, but one is infinitely more beautiful than the other. It would be no good if the ride quality was poor, though (of the bike, not the watch, that is).

kingstonian

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

I'd be intrigued to know how these bikes ride. Are they mostly objects of beauty built to fit the customer or is the ride quality up there with similarly priced frames?

I will give you an honest appraisal when I collect mine.

mikenetic

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

I'd be intrigued to know how these bikes ride. Are they mostly objects of beauty built to fit the customer or is the ride quality up there with similarly priced frames?

I've ridden road bikes for a good while, and have owned a couple of CF bikes and now have a Rourke 853 with an Enve fork.

Differences between them can be hard to describe, and to be honest beyond the £1700-£2000 mark I think it's not always about "better" it's more a case of "different"

The Rourke rides beautifully, and for it's intended use (fast club rides, 100 milers and general leisure riding) it's spot on. It doesn't have quite the whip-crack response of the Canyon I owned, but is far less fidgety on the road, it just seems to roll and roll. The geometry is pretty racy, so it's quite nimble with it.

It's not all about steel vs CF either. I owned a Roubaix which was too soft, and rode a Condor Acciaio which I have to say was very uninspiring. Felt totally dead.

I think the differences really come down to the match between the bike and rider expectations. With an off the peg bike you're working with the parameters set by the designer. If they match your needs, great, you should get a good bike.

If you go custom you can work with a builder to discuss your needs, and there's enough variety in steel tube sets to build up a bike that'll match your brief. Some builders can mix steel and carbon, some can go full carbon too.

Communication (& honesty) between builder and customer is really core to the process. Had I said I wanted a Crit Race bike that I'd only ever ride for an hour absolutely at the limit I'm sure the frame would have been completely different.

There's the cosmetic side too, which some people don't really care about, but others do. You do at least have choice there if you go custom.

jonny_trousers

Kingstonian wrote:

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

I'd be intrigued to know how these bikes ride. Are they mostly objects of beauty built to fit the customer or is the ride quality up there with similarly priced frames?

I will give you an honest appraisal when I collect mine.

If yours is the Safron that was on Facebook yesterday, it's flipping gorgeous!

jonny_trousers

mikenetic wrote:

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

I'd be intrigued to know how these bikes ride. Are they mostly objects of beauty built to fit the customer or is the ride quality up there with similarly priced frames?

I've ridden road bikes for a good while, and have owned a couple of CF bikes and now have a Rourke 853 with an Enve fork.

Differences between them can be hard to describe, and to be honest beyond the £1700-£2000 mark I think it's not always about "better" it's more a case of "different"

The Rourke rides beautifully, and for it's intended use (fast club rides, 100 milers and general leisure riding) it's spot on. It doesn't have quite the whip-crack response of the Canyon I owned, but is far less fidgety on the road, it just seems to roll and roll. The geometry is pretty racy, so it's quite nimble with it.

It's not all about steel vs CF either. I owned a Roubaix which was too soft, and rode a Condor Acciaio which I have to say was very uninspiring. Felt totally dead.

I think the differences really come down to the match between the bike and rider expectations. With an off the peg bike you're working with the parameters set by the designer. If they match your needs, great, you should get a good bike.

If you go custom you can work with a builder to discuss your needs, and there's enough variety in steel tube sets to build up a bike that'll match your brief. Some builders can mix steel and carbon, some can go full carbon too.

Communication (& honesty) between builder and customer is really core to the process. Had I said I wanted a Crit Race bike that I'd only ever ride for an hour absolutely at the limit I'm sure the frame would have been completely different.

There's the cosmetic side too, which some people don't really care about, but others do. You do at least have choice there if you go custom.

Interesting post. Thanks!

kingstonian

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

Kingstonian wrote:

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

I'd be intrigued to know how these bikes ride. Are they mostly objects of beauty built to fit the customer or is the ride quality up there with similarly priced frames?

I will give you an honest appraisal when I collect mine.

If yours is the Safron that was on Facebook yesterday, it's flipping gorgeous!

No, not mine - I'm picking mine up from Donhou any day now.

drlodge

mikenetic wrote:

Differences between them can be hard to describe, and to be honest beyond the £1700-£2000 mark I think it's not always about "better" it's more a case of "different"

The Rourke rides beautifully, and for it's intended use (fast club rides, 100 milers and general leisure riding) it's spot on. It doesn't have quite the whip-crack response of the Canyon I owned, but is far less fidgety on the road, it just seems to roll and roll. The geometry is pretty racy, so it's quite nimble with it.

It's not all about steel vs CF either. I owned a Roubaix which was too soft, and rode a Condor Acciaio which I have to say was very uninspiring. Felt totally dead.

I think the differences really come down to the match between the bike and rider expectations. With an off the peg bike you're working with the parameters set by the designer. If they match your needs, great, you should get a good bike.

If you go custom you can work with a builder to discuss your needs, and there's enough variety in steel tube sets to build up a bike that'll match your brief. Some builders can mix steel and carbon, some can go full carbon too.

Communication (& honesty) between builder and customer is really core to the process. Had I said I wanted a Crit Race bike that I'd only ever ride for an hour absolutely at the limit I'm sure the frame would have been completely different.

There's the cosmetic side too, which some people don't really care about, but others do. You do at least have choice there if you go custom.

Sums up my thoughts on my Rourke 953 although I have less experience of other bikes, especially:

The Rourke rides beautifully, and for it's intended use (fast club rides, 100 milers and general leisure riding) it's spot on

It fits like a glove, is perfect for its intended use and has a paint job that is unique.

kingstonian

Jamie4659 - I picked mine up today and just loaded up pics of my bike in the "Your Road Bikes" section. Will give you the lowdown on how it rides etc after I've taken it for a spin.

kingstonian

Right - took it for a spin this morning, here's how I found it.

The bike fits perfectly, and I mean perfectly. It is just so comfortable whilst being very responsive. I had a knee op last year and was very careful to ensure the fit was right (Velosport in Putney did a great Retul fit for me), and it paid dividends.

The frame feels responsive but not too stiff. It absorbs bumps without feeling spongy.

The Di2 is awesome. Gear changes just so slick, I just need to get used to the levers as I upshifted a couple of times when I wanted to downshift, and vice versa.

Very happy with the brakes, incredible stopping power and very light action. Really pleased with them. I expected to need to bed them in but there has been no brake squeal from the very first time I used them.

The bike descends well, very predictable and not at all twitchy. I intentionally scrubbed off some speed on the first descent (didn't want to overcook it first time!!!) but there was no need, on the second descent I just let it run and it was nice and smooth.

Wheels - seem to be fine, certainly roll well.

Bars are super comfortable, the Nitto Noodles just seems to fit in the hands to well.

The bike weighs 7.5kg, could easily get it below 7kg with going for lighter components (bars, stem and saddle could all be lighter if I wanted) but I went for both comfort and looks before weight, and wouldn't change them for lighter carbon jobbies. Plus the stem was custom made by Tom - a carbon stem would no doubt be a bit lighter but it would never look so damned good !!!!!

ugo.santalucia

Kingstonian wrote:

The bike weighs 7.5kg, could easily get it below 7kg with going for lighter components (bars, stem and saddle could all be lighter if I wanted) but I went for both comfort and looks before weight, and wouldn't change them for lighter carbon jobbies.

IME that's incredibly hard to achieve on a disc bike and almost impossible on a steel frame. Just to give you an idea, mine that also is 853 with carbon fork, similar wheelset and reasonably light components comes at just under 10 Kg with road tyres.
I think the Cycleclinic has built a disc bike around that weight, but it's all carbon weight weenie job... frame, rims, components, the lot...

kingstonian

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Kingstonian wrote:

The bike weighs 7.5kg, could easily get it below 7kg with going for lighter components (bars, stem and saddle could all be lighter if I wanted) but I went for both comfort and looks before weight, and wouldn't change them for lighter carbon jobbies.

IME that's incredibly hard to achieve on a disc bike and almost impossible on a steel frame. Just to give you an idea, mine that also is 853 with carbon fork, similar wheelset and reasonably light components comes at just under 10 Kg with road tyres.
I think the Cycleclinic has built a disc bike around that weight, but it's all carbon weight weenie job... frame, rims, components, the lot...

Yep, I meant to mention that the disc brakes are a clear weight penalty.

ugo.santalucia

Kingstonian wrote:

Yep, I meant to mention that the disc brakes are a clear weight penalty.

What I mean is that I find it hard to believe that bike weighs 7.5 Kg... IME a disc braked bike as a whole weighs roughly 1 Kg more than an equivalent rim braked... (heavier wheels, heavier fork, heavier brake system) so that means you could have a steel bike like yours, rim braked at 6.5 Kg, which I find it a bit hard to believe.
Weighing bikes is never easy, they have a weird shape and unless you have a well calibrated "hook" type scale, you can make pretty big errors.

jamie4759

Kingstonian: Many thanks. Look forward to seeing the pics. Very interested to learn how it rides.

kingstonian

JAMIE4759 wrote:

Kingstonian: Many thanks. Look forward to seeing the pics. Very interested to learn how it rides.

Photos are already loaded up in the Your Road Bikes section.

drlodge

ugo.santalucia wrote:

What I mean is that I find it hard to believe that bike weighs 7.5 Kg...

Me too! My Rourke 953 with Campag Super Record is 8kg :oops: Clearly there's no weight reduction to be gained in the components, and the wheels aren't exactly heavy weights.

kingstonian

drlodge wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

What I mean is that I find it hard to believe that bike weighs 7.5 Kg...

Me too! My Rourke 953 with Campag Super Record is 8kg :oops: Clearly there's no weight reduction to be gained in the components, and the wheels aren't exactly heavy weights.

Point taken, quite possible I have an incorrect weight recorded (completely agree with Ugo that a bike isn't the easiest thing in the world to accurately weigh). Point still stands though that I didn't go for the lightest components, but it matters not a jot to me because I'm loving how it rides nevertheless.