youth gear measurement accuracy

mamba80

was asked to gear check the youth races recently, being a dutiful sort of chap I said yes, how hard can it be....so I thought !!!!

whats the lee way on accuracy? is there an unwritten rule that gives riders an extra 10% say ? and if they go over, is there a right of appeal?

drlodge

I'm not an authority on this, but I would think:
- There is no lee-way. The rules are the rules. Check the "roll out" distance after the race and if they exceed it they're disqualified
- as a backup, you should know which gear ratio combinations give an allowable roll-out distance so in the event of the test failing you can check whether you screwed up, or the bike has not been adjusted/setup correctly.

Would be worth having a table for the various categories showing the permissable chainring/sprocket combinations for 700 and 650 wheels.

imposter2.0

mamba80 wrote:

was asked to gear check the youth races recently, being a dutiful sort of chap I said yes, how hard can it be....so I thought !!!!

whats the lee way on accuracy? is there an unwritten rule that gives riders an extra 10% say ? and if they go over, is there a right of appeal?

10% may be too much, but as long as the pedal falls on the line or either side of it within a couple of inches, I will usually pass it. A lot depends on the thickness of the line itself, so the roll-out is never going to be 100% accurate.

maryka

Depends on the race. A midweek crit with loads of new racers, you might get away with 10%. A National Series or any race with high-level competition and significance, not a chance.

Right of appeal would consist of "please can you roll it out again to make sure?" And if it passes, fine. If it fails, that's your appeal done.

mamba80

well what happened was that the roll out was 10cm or more over every time, checked 3 times, easily went over 7,03m instead of 6.93m, I do know all the various gear combinations and this set up was 50x15 which in any chart gives 7m+
Other youth A's use 50x16 or buy a 48/49t front chain ring, obviously different tires have dif rolling diameters and there is how quickly the freehub picks up the ratchet.

I had to explain that it was a fail, but to be sure I was correct in this, I called over the local BC REO, who was also the race organiser, he calmed down the irate parents and basically fixed it by weaving the bike backwards and stopping the bike before the crank was vertical.

I was just a bit taken aback at how parental pressure easily over rides the rules (the youth in question was an experienced racer) I wouldn't offer to do this chore again, there is no point.

imposter2.0

I think that's pushing it a bit, tbh. As a matter of interest, how did the rider get on with having a gear advantage?

maryka

FFS and then they wonder why kids (and adults later on) cheat in racing. Their parents are right there encouraging it all along. The REO should know better. Ridiculous!

slowbike

I don't do bike racing - other than TTs ... but I do a lot of dinghy racing ...

On a club level, if there's someone who is new, not doing very well and will not affect the results then we will often coach them from the safety boat. Totally outside the rules, but it helps them improve and encourages them to race more.
I would apply a similar logic to bike rules - if they're not going to gain a competitive advantage then let it pass, but offer some guidance to the parents so it's corrected next time.
Quite frankly, if the youth was experienced (and I assume reasonably good?) then I wouldn't let it pass - unless there was some reason* for having an oversized gear and they offered to restrict the mech so the gear couldn't be selected.

*say last minute broken spoke, borrowed a wheel from someone else.

imposter2.0

If you borrow a wheel from someone else during a race - and if you then finish top three on that wheel (or are chosen for a random gear check) - then you are still DQd. The fact is that having a larger gear than the permitted roll-out WILL give you a de-facto competitive advantage. Whether the rider concerned has the fitness to be able to effectively exploit that advantage is not the issue.

wallace_and_gromit

Slowbike wrote:

On a club level, if there's someone who is new, not doing very well and will not affect the results then we will often coach them from the safety boat. Totally outside the rules, but it helps them improve and encourages them to race more.

I would apply a similar logic to bike rules - if they're not going to gain a competitive advantage then let it pass, but offer some guidance to the parents so it's corrected next time.

This seems an eminently sensible approach to take with newcomers. On a similar note, my daughter did her first swimming gala a few weeks ago. It involved three local clubs and was aimed at debutant or inexperienced racers. The head coach of one of the clubs spotted that the under 9 backstrokers from our club were doing "illegal" starts. (They had their toes above the top of the pool, which is apparently not allowed.)

Said coach wanted the offenders disqualified, and was told politely by all the other coaches to "get stuffed", as everyone was having a good time and the gala was about the young swimmers not some old duffer with a clipboard!

Obviously, at higher levels of competition and with experienced competitors, rules do need to be applied, but sometimes a bit of slack can be cut.

At the national track champs in 2011, Hugh Porter was acting as compere and commentator (brilliantly, I must add) and during the ladies' madison, he actually started passing on tactical advice to the pairings scrapping for the minor placings. (I don't think Lucy Garner or Hannah Barnes in the leading pairs needed any advice.) I'm sure this isn't allowed, but it was certainly very interesting to see if/how the advice was followed.

imposter2.0

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

At the national track champs in 2011, Hugh Porter was acting as compere and commentator (brilliantly, I must add) and during the ladies' madison, he actually started passing on tactical advice to the pairings scrapping for the minor placings. (I don't think Lucy Garner or Hannah Barnes in the leading pairs needed any advice.) I'm sure this isn't allowed, but it was certainly very interesting to see if/how the advice was followed.

No reason why that shouldn't be allowed. Coaches will be doing it from trackside anyway. Football crowds are always offering 'advice' to the players on the pitch....

imposter2.0

madasahattersley wrote:

Even right up to the juniors you'll find no shortage of (very successful) riders using a 53x14 then just letting their tyres down to give a shorter rollout.

I've come across this a few times and it's an old trick, but it works up to a point. It could be easily countered if the rules were changed to only allow roll-outs with tyres at race pressure - as opposed to 20psi..

drlodge

madasahattersley wrote:

50x15 is the exact gear I got disqualified for, and you should IMO have made them block off the 15 and ride with a 50x16. Running bigger gears gives you a huge advantage. Even right up to the juniors you'll find no shortage of (very successful) riders using a 53x14 then just letting their tyres down to give a shorter rollout. Very bad commissairing to just let them get away with it because their parents are pushy cheaters. They deserve a good bit of disqualifying.

I hate it when pushy kids (or worse their parents push their kids) try and cheat to win, they should be made an example of and as you say, be given a good dose of disqualifying!

slowbike

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Said coach wanted the offenders disqualified, and was told politely by all the other coaches to "get stuffed", as everyone was having a good time and the gala was about the young swimmers not some old duffer with a clipboard!

Obviously, at higher levels of competition and with experienced competitors, rules do need to be applied, but sometimes a bit of slack can be cut.

Exactly - it depends what the event is for - if it's serious competition then rules should be applied, if it's a lesser event designed to encourage participation then the rules could be relaxed a little - however, an experienced competitor should stick to the rules and pushy parents should be DSQ ...

wallace_and_gromit

Slowbike wrote:

...pushy parents should be DSQ ...

My daughter is mortified if she even here's me cheering for her, and occasionally gets a bit miffed if I make eye contact when she's poolside. Luckily, once she's in the water she can't hear me, so I can cheer as much as I want to!

I can't stand pushy parents in the sporting arena. If they want success so badly then I refer them to Sir Brad's quote from the 2012 Tour...

wallace_and_gromit

Imposter wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

At the national track champs in 2011, Hugh Porter was acting as compere and commentator (brilliantly, I must add) and during the ladies' madison, he actually started passing on tactical advice to the pairings scrapping for the minor placings. (I don't think Lucy Garner or Hannah Barnes in the leading pairs needed any advice.) I'm sure this isn't allowed, but it was certainly very interesting to see if/how the advice was followed.

No reason why that shouldn't be allowed. Coaches will be doing it from trackside anyway. Football crowds are always offering 'advice' to the players on the pitch....

I guess it must be OK. Hugh wasn't hauled over the coals for doing it, though as as event official, being seen to be impartial is usually important.

He was truly on form that day - he made two Madisons seem interesting and even understandable all the way through. No mean achievement!

jibberjim

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

I would apply a similar logic to bike rules - if they're not going to gain a competitive advantage then let it pass, but offer some guidance to the parents so it's corrected next time.

This seems an eminently sensible approach to take with newcomers.[/quote]

But as noted by others, it would take 10seconds with a screwdriver to block out the 50x15 and they can still race within the rules, you help out the newcomer that way, not by showing them that rules aren't important.

wallace_and_gromit

jibberjim wrote:

But as noted by others, it would take 10seconds with a screwdriver to block out the 50x15 and they can still race within the rules, you help out the newcomer that way, not by showing them that rules aren't important.

I was thinking in a more general context - Do you apply the rules blindly and potentially p*ss of enthusiastic newcomers or do you cut a bit of slack where appropriate? In the gearing example then taking the 10 seconds to make the bike compliant would be the obvious solution.

drlodge

A junior in the club recently went to a race on his new bike, and was unable to block out the smallest sprockets as the RD screw wouldn't go in far enough. He ended up having to restrict use of the big chainring instead, which put him at a disadvantage. I think in these circumstances some understanding is called for if the junior is stuck or needs help. In the case I describe above, he's been advised to buy/fit a smaller big chainring so no restriction is needed.

Pross

The measurement is a maximum so if it goes over they need to screw it down and run a gear low. If the parents kick up a fuss let their child ride and then DQ them afterwards if they place :twisted:

imposter2.0

drlodge wrote:

A junior in the club recently went to a race on his new bike, and was unable to block out the smallest sprockets as the RD screw wouldn't go in far enough. He ended up having to restrict use of the big chainring instead, which put him at a disadvantage. I think in these circumstances some understanding is called for if the junior is stuck or needs help. In the case I describe above, he's been advised to buy/fit a smaller big chainring so no restriction is needed.

If it was his first ever race, then that might be excused - but not to the point where he is allowed to race on an illegal gear. If he was an experienced racer, then there is no excuse for him turning up with a bike without the correct roll-out.

drlodge

It was his first race, he sought advice, got to the race early in order that someone coudl look at his bike and sort it. He did well, and its a fine example to other Juniors. I'm just saying that say he couldn't sort it for that race, they might have let him race even if he couldn't restrict his gears on the understanding that any "good" result would be void - basically DSQ. Which I guess is just applying the rules!

maryka

What other sports can you break the rules but it's ok because you're a newbie? What other sports can you show up in fact not even knowing the rules and it's ok because you're a newbie? Hand ball goal in football counts because you didn't know and it was your first game? Headbutting someone in rugby because you thought it was no big deal?

Not sure what people think of cycle racing before they try it, but you know, it's actually a pretty dangerous sport done at high speeds in close quarters (even youth races). People who either don't take the time to find out what they're getting their kid into before they show up, or don't bother to try and adhere to the rules once they're there have no place in the sport. And there are races every week or sometimes several times a week. Boo hoo you show up with the wrong gears and can't race. Fix it and come back next week. And why should the people who take the time to know and follow the most basic rules be disadvantaged because a few others can't be bothered?

First test in cycle racing should be an IQ test... and in fact I would be in favour of would-be racers needing to do a simple multiple choice test to get their first race license, if only to bring their attention to the fact that the sport actually does have rules, because plenty of people have no idea.

wallace_and_gromit

maryka wrote:

What other sports can you break the rules but it's ok because you're a newbie? What other sports can you show up in fact not even knowing the rules and it's ok because you're a newbie? Hand ball goal in football counts because you didn't know and it was your first game? Headbutting someone in rugby because you thought it was no big deal?

Not sure what people think of cycle racing before they try it, but you know, it's actually a pretty dangerous sport done at high speeds in close quarters (even youth races). People who either don't take the time to find out what they're getting their kid into before they show up, or don't bother to try and adhere to the rules once they're there have no place in the sport. And there are races every week or sometimes several times a week. Boo hoo you show up with the wrong gears and can't race. Fix it and come back next week. And why should the people who take the time to know and follow the most basic rules be disadvantaged because a few others can't be bothered?

First test in cycle racing should be an IQ test... and in fact I would be in favour of would-be racers needing to do a simple multiple choice test to get their first race license, if only to bring their attention to the fact that the sport actually does have rules, because plenty of people have no idea.

I think this depends on whether you want to encourage newbies into the sport or not.

If not, fine, apply every rule exactly as written, and put up with the fact that you lose a potential taleted athlete simply because they or their parents were made to feel unwelcome.

My daughter - referred to above - was a talented exponent of Karate, but the club Sensei was a tw*t with regards to petty club rules, so she moved into swimming full time. Now the Karate club can't put out a girls' team 'cos they don't have enough girls on the roster. Club rules were effectively adhered to (daughter wasn't there to break them by wearing non-matching kit when travelling to competitions for example) but who benefitted other than the swimming club?

If you want to encourage people, then you cut them slack first time out where appropriate (e.g. minor rule) / safe, have a friendly chat with them afterwards and resolve the problem sensibly. Repeat offenders get the book thrown at them, obviously.

In the specific example of gearing for juniors, I assume that this is to protect growing bodies from undue stresses and strains. If a kid turns up with a 14 tooth cog at the back where a 15 tooth one would be legal then in a single race they are not going to do themselves much damage. There are far bigger risks for the kid from being turned off sport and becoming a couch potatoe. If he actually wins first time out with the advantage that the 14 tooth cog gives over a 15 tooth cog then the club officials should fall on their knees and kiss the lad's feet as he must be very talented and should be nutured rather than subject to clipboard-wielding members of the Blazerati.

imposter2.0

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

In the specific example of gearing for juniors, I assume that this is to protect growing bodies from undue stresses and strains. If a kid turns up with a 14 tooth cog at the back where a 15 tooth one would be legal then in a single race they are not going to do themselves much damage. There are far bigger risks for the kid from being turned off sport and becoming a couch potatoe. If he actually wins first time out with the advantage that the 14 tooth cog gives over a 15 tooth cog then the club officials should fall on their knees and kiss the lad's feet as he must be very talented and should be nutured rather than subject to clipboard-wielding members of the Blazerati.

Growth plate issues are only one aspect of the roll-out rules. Another (which applies especially to the younger age groups) is to provide a level playing field for all, regardless of size. Kids all grow at different rates and it is not unusual to see 24", 26" and 700c wheels all together on the U10 start line, for instance. At least if they are all turning the same top gear ratio, it will equalise the competition to a degree.

I'm with Maryka on this one though - rules are there for everyone, not just those who already know about them.

lyn1

Imposter wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

In the specific example of gearing for juniors, I assume that this is to protect growing bodies from undue stresses and strains. If a kid turns up with a 14 tooth cog at the back where a 15 tooth one would be legal then in a single race they are not going to do themselves much damage. There are far bigger risks for the kid from being turned off sport and becoming a couch potatoe. If he actually wins first time out with the advantage that the 14 tooth cog gives over a 15 tooth cog then the club officials should fall on their knees and kiss the lad's feet as he must be very talented and should be nutured rather than subject to clipboard-wielding members of the Blazerati.

Growth plate issues are only one aspect of the roll-out rules. Another (which applies especially to the younger age groups) is to provide a level playing field for all, regardless of size. Kids all grow at different rates and it is not unusual to see 24", 26" and 700c wheels all together on the U10 start line, for instance. At least if they are all turning the same top gear ratio, it will equalise the competition to a degree.

I'm with Maryka on this one though - rules are there for everyone, not just those who already know about them.

I agree. It's a few years since my lads were youths but they came from triathlon where restriction did not apply. We were baffled when we turned up to a road race for the first time. At the roll out they were both over the limit. The guy called his mate over who had a screwdriver and he explained gear restriction to us and showed me how to adjust the gears. No arguing, no unfairness. It's easily solved. There are always plenty of people about who are willing to help.

The one confusing issue once we became more involved was the problem when they raced a British National Series in England, Tour of Kerry in Ireland and Tour of Assen in Holland in the space of a few weeks where 3 different roll out distances applied based on different Federations. The Dutch race also refused to allow screwing off. Correct gearing or no race.