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Shimano mix compatibility help

n3crophilen3crophile Posts: 52
edited May 2014 in Workshop
I know it's a mish-mash and perhaps an insult to Dura Ace, but wanted to run these by you and see if there are any compatibility errors or any specific rear mech that I need:

EDIT: whoops, totally forgot to mention shifters, but as someone commented below, they are indeed 7800 haha.

Shifters: 7800 Dura-Ace 10 speed
F Brake: old Shimano 105 (maybe 5700 but probably earlier)
R Brake: same as above
Cranks: 105 5700 53/39
F Mech: 7800 Dura-Ace 10 speed
Cassette: 105 10 speed
R Mech: - it's an old 105 at the moment. I'm trying to find a 7800 Dura-Ace to semi complete that aspect of the build, but would any 10 speed work?
Chain: cheap shimano 10 speed

I read something about pre-5700 mechs working with 7800 Dura-Ace but then 5700 and onwards utilising a different pull ratio. Any advice would be grand!

Thanks!

Posts

  • gozzygozzy Posts: 640
    The pull ratio you're thinking of is to do with the brakes. They slightly changed it when the released x700/7900. As such, Shimano's marketing department obviously recommends you combine 5700/6700/7900 brakes and levers and don't mix backwards, but it seems the general consensus is you're not going to notice much of a difference.

    Otherwise, Shimano 10 speed is Shimano 10 speed, across the board. You can use any Shimano 10 speed rear mech with any shimano 10 speed shifter, you'll even be fine with a 9 or 11 speed mech as well. The mech doesn't care too much what speed it runs (you can generally go 1 speed either side) as it's the shifters that determine the pull.

    What shifters are you using? I'm guessing 7800? If so everything you've listed will be fine.
  • antflyantfly Posts: 3,448
    The pull ratio thing with the brakes isn't just marketing, there is a very real difference, but you don't say what shifters you are using or want to use anyway. Have a look at the celebrazio website for all Shimano recommended compatibility charts.
    Smarter than the average bear.
  • MatthewfalleMatthewfalle Posts: 17,571
    As above - the difference in pull ratios will make the brakes feel wooden and reduce stopping power - they will srill work but just won't work as intended.

    I didn't think it would be much difference when I popped on later 105 shifters onto the winter bike with older brakes but then changed the brakes and was mightily surprised.

    I'd censored the cash on getting matching front brake/whichever shifters you're using and not worry about the back too much.

    Re 7800 re mech: that's going to be a second hand job so watch out for bends and general fuckedness.

    I wouldn't say that build was an insult to D/A - after all you only have a D/A front mech (unless the shifters are 7800) - I'd say it was a fine budget build.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 15,959
    antfly wrote:
    The pull ratio thing with the brakes isn't just marketing, there is a very real difference,

    Have you actually tried this? I'd day it is marketing.
    As above - the difference in pull ratios will make the brakes feel wooden and reduce stopping power - they will srill work but just won't work as intended.

    Likewise - in what way will stopping power be reduced and why will they feel wooden? What does 'wooden' even mean in this context? Is this personal experience or do you just believe it? I can see that it might affect modulation to the extent you'll need an extra five minutes to get accustomed to it but total stopping power? No - not unless the design was radically different and they don't look that different to me!

    The only way I could see it making a real difference is if the cables were designed to give a non linear pull ratio - but that would mean you'd have to be continually adjusting the cables for every fraction of a mm of pad wear.

    Have Shimano really found a way of making a very simple lever complicated (and make no mistake, there is nothing to a bicycle brake caliper - pull brake lever by 'x' mm, caliper arm moves 'y' mm) or is it something to do with wanting to flog you an entire new groupset?........

    If I was the OP, I'd buy the shifters I wanted and try them with the brakes I had. If, after a decent trial, that didn't work, then I'd look for some new calipers - they aren't very expensive.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • MatthewfalleMatthewfalle Posts: 17,571
    Yes - it is personal experience, which is what I put in my post.

    I'm normally with you 100 per cent re marketing bull guff but I was actually very surprised.

    And agree - I think I paid £20 for the necessary 105 calliper, so nothing to break the bank.

    Wooden:unfeeling. Cold. Not very effective. Can't feel the pads biting. Like you're wearing winter gloves.

    Select your superlative from the above or make up your own :)
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • antflyantfly Posts: 3,448
    As above, I have tried it too and was surprised, 6700 shifters with 6600 calipers with new pads, which worked fine with my old shifters. One ride was enough to know it was unsatisfactory, I bought the 6700 calipers and the difference is great. Same cables, before you say.
    Smarter than the average bear.
  • MatthewfalleMatthewfalle Posts: 17,571
    Pads will obviously make a difference as well but even running Koolstop salmons in the mismatched calipers didn't help at all.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • DiscoBoyDiscoBoy Posts: 905
    gozzy wrote:
    . You can use any Shimano 10 speed rear mech with any shimano 10 speed shifter, you'll even be fine with a 9 or 11 speed mech as well. The mech doesn't care too much what speed it runs (you can generally go 1 speed either side) as it's the shifters that determine the pull.

    I believe that this isn't true for 11 speed because the pull ratio is different. I haven't tried for myself, but I asked this question and this is what I was told.
    Red bikes are the fastest.
  • n3crophilen3crophile Posts: 52
    Thank you for your replies,

    I have edited my original post as forgot to inform you of the shifters, which were the entire reason for this post, which are indeed Dura Ace 7800 10 speed. Hence my comments about the mismatch jumble, but obviously that's fine for me :D It's all going on a 1990s Gazelle Formula Race, probably not many of those with 10 speed DA around!

    I am glad to hear that it will all be fine, the barrage of misleading and convoluted information on Shimano groupset inter-compatibility is a lot to get your head around!

    I will monitor the braking performance and upgrade if need be!

    My current rear mech is 105 (possibly older than 5700 - the rest of the 105 groupset is pre-5700 so I would assume it is matching) and running on 8 speed - so I may well need a new rear mech then? Will keep an eye out for any 10-speed number going cheap :)
  • MatthewfalleMatthewfalle Posts: 17,571
    £28 for a 105 mech at CRC. Bizarrely, 11 speed is £1 cheaper.

    Probably even cheaper at Merlin etc but have to go for lunch now (pasta pesto and red wine, bruschetta) so can't look. Sorry!
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • antflyantfly Posts: 3,448
    If your brakes are pre 5700 then they are fully compatible with 7800 anyway.
    Smarter than the average bear.
  • n3crophilen3crophile Posts: 52
    £28 for a 105 mech at CRC. Bizarrely, 11 speed is £1 cheaper.

    Probably even cheaper at Merlin etc but have to go for lunch now (pasta pesto and red wine, bruschetta) so can't look. Sorry!

    Cheers Matt, I will shoot for a first hand black 105 unless I come across a nice dark coloured Ultegra or Dura Ace going second hand.

    Thanks for the lunch info, sounds lovely - I had a chiquino pepper and onion scrambled eggs with diced chorizo. Delightful!
  • BozmanBozman Posts: 2,570
    antfly wrote:
    The pull ratio thing with the brakes isn't just marketing, there is a very real difference, but you don't say what shifters you are using or want to use anyway. Have a look at the celebrazio website for all Shimano recommended compatibility charts.

    There's no difference, I've used 7800 levers with 6700 brakes and SRAM rival brakes, I used 7900 levers with 7800 brakes for a while and noticed absolutely nothing, when you swap them over to the correct pull ratio you just can't tell. Shimano bull5hit.
  • The MechanicThe Mechanic Posts: 1,277
    I have Shimano Ultegra 6700 shifters on my road bike and my audax/tourer. On the road bike I have 6700 calipers. On the other bike I have BR650 calipers. Both sets of calipers have Kool Stop salmon brake blocks. I can't tell any difference in braking efficiency. Maybe I am too ham fisted.
    I have only two things to say to that; Bo***cks
  • antflyantfly Posts: 3,448
    Bozman wrote:
    antfly wrote:
    The pull ratio thing with the brakes isn't just marketing, there is a very real difference, but you don't say what shifters you are using or want to use anyway. Have a look at the celebrazio website for all Shimano recommended compatibility charts.

    There's no difference, I've used 7800 levers with 6700 brakes and SRAM rival brakes, I used 7900 levers with 7800 brakes for a while and noticed absolutely nothing, when you swap them over to the correct pull ratio you just can't tell. Shimano bull5hit.

    That's just your opinion, it's not a statement of fact. You can't tell the difference, me and matthew definitely can.
    Smarter than the average bear.
  • MatthewfalleMatthewfalle Posts: 17,571
    n3crophile wrote:
    £28 for a 105 mech at CRC. Bizarrely, 11 speed is £1 cheaper.

    Probably even cheaper at Merlin etc but have to go for lunch now (pasta pesto and red wine, bruschetta) so can't look. Sorry!

    Cheers Matt, I will shoot for a first hand black 105 unless I come across a nice dark coloured Ultegra or Dura Ace going second hand.

    Thanks for the lunch info, sounds lovely - I had a chiquino pepper and onion scrambled eggs with diced chorizo. Delightful!

    Pleasure - no problem at all. Your lunch sounds really nice as well. I've spent an afternoon gossiping and drinking espresso, so meatballs and Barollo for dinner.

    As an aside, Evans May be worth a pop for the mech as sometimes they have decent prices up as well.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
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