Internal promotion ...are they taking the p

Simmo72

Got an internal promotion, but they are saying I won't get the pay increase until after completing 3 month probation period. is this normal uk practise or shall I tell them to do one? You do the job, you get the money. I think they are tasking the piss, especially as it's saved them at least 8-10k in agency fees. Tight arses. Any hr experts out there?

Simmo72

Oh and pay is not back paid after completing probation.

rick_chasey

Pretty much totally at their discretion AFAIK.

mr_goo

I would tend to agree with your thoughts that the HR dept are taking the proverbial. Why not approach them and point out the savings they have made in using outside agencies to fill the position.

HR in my experience quite ruthless and sail only just on the right side of employment law. At my current employer, one of my colleagues who had over 6 years office experience moved to an 'in the field role'. The boss told him that he would be forgoing the company bonus scheme for a year as he was going to be treated as if he was a new employee. Talk about taking the pi55.

slowbike

It's all in the contract and that is open to negotiation .....

pblakeney

Work as if your life depended on it for 3 months.
Then swing the lead for 3 years.
That'll teach them.
Or, refuse the promotion.
Or, leave and go elsewhere.

There are so many options and I often wonder why people in this Country automatically toe the line.

morstar

What's your leverage? How much does this job mean to you?
If it's a position you want in a setting that works for you, you may not wish to push back too hard. If you are happy to leave and are confident of getting a new position elsewhere, negotiate or tell em to shove it.
They're chancing their arm and seemingly getting away with it.

rick_chasey

Maybe I'm being dense but what has potential 'agency' costs got anything to do with internal promotions?


In my office to get promoted you need to be seen to be doing the job you want to be promoted into for 6 months already, which is an entirely fair position.

It's a new role so they want to make sure you are up to it. If you're not, it's easier to say you haven't made probation over demoting you and cutting your pay after 2 months.

pinno

Sell up, move to a farmstead in the middle of no where and live off the land.

Simmo72

That doesn't wash with me.
They have offered the role to me, and whilst I naturally have to pass probation as with any other job, I do not see why they should have me do the job whilst getting paid for a lower grade position. This is taking advantage of an internal placement and I have put it in writing that it is not sitting well with me and I am not prepared to agree on the principal it sends a negative message and a lack of confidence before I have event started. This job is going to be hard and a challenge, squeezing my nuts at the beginning is not a great start.

Adjustments to payroll are not rocket science, its a piece of piss, that excuse does not wash. I only have a few moral princicpals and not being screwed over is right up there. They can back date it on completion of probation, I am not fussed about getting the money up front, but you do the job, you get the money.

Simmo72

pinarello001 wrote:

Sell up, move to a farmstead in the middle of no where and live off the land.

That is plan B, but I wouldn't be able to get my dream super record italian beastie......and feed my kids!

VTech

Im going to get people arguing with me here but ill give my view anyway. Taken as someone who has only worked for others for a short period and the rest for himself.

No one offered me a pay rise, I knew in my head that if I took on something else and it failed I wouldn't get paid but if it worked I would.
That meant that for a certain amount of time I would in effect be "working without increase of pay but in the hope of increase of pay" and to me that was worth it.

Now there are loads like me on this forum who will have at some point worked extra hours or do more work in the hope of a better outcome and for some it worked and others it didn't but only you can come to the conclusion of wether your prepared to do it.

I don't actually think they are taking the mick, I believe too many people expect more when they should be grateful of a job in the first place now Im not saying this is right in your position, I'm just talking in general.
"IF" they have confirmed that after the time period, you are found to be up for the job and there is a pay rise in store then why not go for it ?
regardless of wether they pay you to prove yourself shouldn't be an issue.

Remember this, many of our grandfathers/great grandfathers actually PAID to learn a trade and gain experience.
In the 1880's - 1940's it wasn't uncommon for parents to pay for their kids work experience.

drlodge

What's in your contract? Its quite normal to be "promoted" and not get a salary increase, since such increases are normally assessed annually (with your bonus if you get one). I got additional responsibilities last year, didn't get a pay increase but am quite happy with my lot.

I would also ask the question, what if I decline the promotion? i.e. what are your options?

Simmo72

yes more responsiblity does not equal more pay, but this is a different, higher role into a managerial position, its a big step in terms of job grades and responsilbity and pressure from the off.

if they recruited externally they would be paying the full rate from the word go. thats why you have a probabation, its a get out clause for both parties. by trying to force me to take the job for a 1/4 of a year without any of the benefits - pay, job grade, bonus, is taking the piss.

i've put in the effort, the hours and have built the skills, I just simply refuse to be walked over. Morality is telling me to say no to offer if they refuse to budge as I have a moral compass and this is a low blow. I can work elsewhere.

VTech

Simmo72 wrote:

yes more responsiblity does not equal more pay, but this is a different, higher role into a managerial position, its a big step in terms of job grades and responsilbity and pressure from the off.

if they recruited externally they would be paying the full rate from the word go. thats why you have a probabation, its a get out clause for both parties. by trying to force me to take the job for a 1/4 of a year without any of the benefits - pay, job grade, bonus, is taking the wee-wee.

i've put in the effort, the hours and have built the skills, I just simply refuse to be walked over. Morality is telling me to say no to offer if they refuse to budge as I have a moral compass and this is a low blow. I can work elsewhere.

You need to sleep on it. If you worked for me and said that I wouldn't want you working for me any more. That is purely from a point of view of someone who hires people. I am sure that there are other reasons and that your rejection of the job is not purely based on money.

drlodge

So you have a choice then...also bear in mind that if the new role is significantly different, the company could offer you the choice of the new role or redundancy.

Think about how much money you will "lose" by not getting the pay rise immediately, its not a lot.

Lets assume the new role pays an extra £10k, 3 months is £2,500 and on 40% tax + NI you'll get about half that. So about a grand at most. Is it really that much?

Weigh up your options and make a decision...its yours to make.

Simmo72

its a large corporate machine, we aren't talking 1940, its a different world. They will get every bit of meat of my bones but this is not normal internal policy. Anyway, I advised them what I thought so its in their hands now. I view it as a no confidence vote in which case they can either rethink and treat me the same as other promotions (as in I applied for the job and had to go through a lengthy interview process to succeed, it wasn't just given to me) or they can get someone else to do it and pay an extra £15000 to the recruitment agency.

ai_1

Simmo72 wrote:

....I only have a few moral princicpals and not being screwed over is right up there.....

Does that count as a moral principle?
I think not.

If you said not screwing other people was a principle of yours and you feel others should adhere to the same standards and not screw you. But not wanting to be screwed yourself is hardly a moral principle.

Simmo72

no, redundancy isn't an option as my current role is remaining and shoudl I decline the job I stay in my job.
i am challenging them on the morality, and the no confidence message it sends. i don't care if they alter my salary immediately or after probabtion and backdate, but like almost everyone, I'm not working for love. I wouldn't put someone of loyal service in this position to save a tiny amount of money. Like i said, its the principal, something I feel strongly about.

Simmo72

Ai_1 wrote:

Simmo72 wrote:

....I only have a few moral princicpals and not being screwed over is right up there.....

Does that count as a moral principle?
I think not.

If you said not screwing other people was a principle of yours and you feel others should adhere to the same standards and not screw you. But not wanting to be screwed yourself is hardly a moral principle.

Fcuks sake. fair enough. I don't treat people like crap, I don't expect to be treated like crap. is that acceptable for you?

VTech

It doenst matter wether its 1940 or 2020, fact is principles are principles and yours are that they are taking the mick and that is worth risking your job for.
Others would sit on the other side and go for it.
Im not sure which is right or wrong, I only know which I would chose.


Also, you are NOT challenging their no confidence as you put it, they ARE offering you the job or at least a chance, to me that shows huge confidence.

I have employed great people who just were not good at the job, that doesn't reflect on them, it just means that the role didn't suit so I found they work elsewhere within the company. You sound like one of the shop stewards at Rover back in the 80's and we all know that outcome.

feltkuota

Simmo72 wrote:

its a large corporate machine, we aren't talking 1940, its a different world. They will get every bit of meat of my bones but this is not normal internal policy. Anyway, I advised them what I thought so its in their hands now. I view it as a no confidence vote in which case they can either rethink and treat me the same as other promotions (as in I applied for the job and had to go through a lengthy interview process to succeed, it wasn't just given to me) or they can get someone else to do it and pay an extra £15000 to the recruitment agency.

Dude, One's fighting for one's rights is another's cutting their nose off to spite their face... As it stands just now It's three months without the pay rise. I don't really see what the big deal is..

Pross

I don't get this either. If it's an issue don't take it and stay where you are at the salary you are currently on indefinitely.

VTech

Not trying to pry into your personal life but do you have a family ? wife and kids I mean
Reason I ask is obviously without a family you can take risks without true concern but if you have a family then maybe you need to put their welfare first ?

slowbike

Look - the guy has a job now. That isn't at risk (as it stands).

None of us have any idea how much he's being paid. He could be on basic wage for all we know.

He's been offered a promotion to a managerial position with 3 months probation at his current salary level. He recognises that it's a more challenging job and he's going to have to put a lot more effort and probably time into it as well.
The company want him to do those 3 months at his current salary level. He thinks he should be given the rise from the date he starts the job even if that means it is back dated from when he passes his probation.

I don't see that as unreasonable. The company should be rewarding the staff appropriately for the job ther're doing. From what I can see, the company want 3 months cheap labour and at the end of that they could send the OP back to where he came from and get another mug in - possibly another "internal promotion" - free for 3 months.

As I said, it's all in the contract - and contracts are open to negotiation. The OP has embarked on that and I hope the company come back and at least meet him half way.

Take it to extremes - if you were the company doorman and they asked you to stand in for the MD for 3 months - but still on doorman pay ... what would your response be?

feltkuota

Slowbike wrote:

Look - the guy has a job now. That isn't at risk (as it stands).

None of us have any idea how much he's being paid. He could be on basic wage for all we know.

He's been offered a promotion to a managerial position with 3 months probation at his current salary level. He recognises that it's a more challenging job and he's going to have to put a lot more effort and probably time into it as well.
The company want him to do those 3 months at his current salary level. He thinks he should be given the rise from the date he starts the job even if that means it is back dated from when he passes his probation.

I don't see that as unreasonable. The company should be rewarding the staff appropriately for the job ther're doing. From what I can see, the company want 3 months cheap labour and at the end of that they could send the OP back to where he came from and get another mug in - possibly another "internal promotion" - free for 3 months.

As I said, it's all in the contract - and contracts are open to negotiation. The OP has embarked on that and I hope the company come back and at least meet him half way.

Take it to extremes - if you were the company doorman and they asked you to stand in for the MD for 3 months - but still on doorman pay ... what would your response be?

Perhaps the company has the same policy for every internal promotion, perhaps the company is trying to test his commitment to a managerial position, perhaps they're trying to save themselves three month's money and perhaps it's all very unfair. Perhaps it's a case of give a little now and reap the reward later. Whatever the reason it's still only three month's of a person's working life and for that reason alone I'd not be worrying about it.

VTech

Perhaps they wanted to verify if the candidate was in it for the long haul or for what he could get from the job in reference to money.

I think everyone here has put across a good side to the argument for either side, its just a case of you takes your pick and stick to it.

pdstsp

I have to say, as an employer, I don't think I would ever expect an employee to do what the OP's employer wants him to do. For two reasons, firstly, I don't think it's fair and, secondly, I don't want anyone working for me to feel that they are being treated unfairly.

However, given that the OP is in the position he is, I kind of agree with others - either get on and do it or start looking elsewhere.

sungod

it's common big company practice to promote without changing compensation

unless it's a position that's really hard to fill, the reality is that you've no leverage, either take it or leave it, in big organisations everyone is replaceable, typically with no significant impact

have they actually said what comp change you should expect and how they'll define 'success' in the role? i'm betting not

in which case i'd focus on getting this clear, otherwise in three months you'll be posting again about how you did all that was asked and still are getting nothing for it

rolf_f

Ahhh, opportunities for internal promotion. I remember those. About 6 years back in the last case as far as I recall. All we get now is senior staff being offered voluntary early releases and the posts go with them so you end up doing those tasks but in your existing role and for your existing salary. Indefinitely. OP a little bit of a case of "waaah waaaah, I want my toys NOW!"

fat_cat

IMO it comes down to how much you want the job. Life's a competitive business and if you turn them down I'm sure they'll find someone else they consider more hungry. Don't turn them down as a point of principle and then moan and b1tch about the person who accepts the role. Life's too short.