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Taken down at Hillingdon - would like an investigation

SouthgateSouthgate Posts: 246
edited May 2014 in Amateur race
I got brought down at Hillingdon last Saturday 10 May in a 4th cat race, resulting in a six hour operation for a fractured wrist, two nights in hospital, and going forward: a long recovery period, an uncertain outcome, and guaranteed arthritis. Don't even get me started on the bike or the end of my cycling holiday in France. I've had better weekends, let me leave it at that.

The crash happened mid way through the race on the straight section by the finishing hut, and when no moves were being made. I didn't have a good enough view to see who specifically caused it, but it was obviously caused by dangerous or careless riding as there were no extenuating factors.

I have emailed the organisers asking for an investigation and they have passed my request to the race commissaire. It's only been a week, but I've heard nothing since, not even an acknowledgement.

I'm not after a public flogging of the guilty rider, or compensation. But I do feel that when there has been a serious crash, there ought to be an investigation, lessons learned, and those who caused it spoken to / reprimanded / suspended, whatever is appropriate and proportional in the circumstances.

I accept the risks of racing, but it seems a bit off that the guilty party can simply spin round to the finish, put his bike in his car and drive home without a care in the world or being subject to any official intervention whatsoever. Three people were hospitalised and two were operated on. Financial damage, incl. three months off work for one self employed rider, will run into the high thousands.

Is a basic investigation too much to ask for? In the meantime, did anyone here witness the crash?
Superstition begins with pinning race number 13 upside down and it ends with the brutal slaughter of Mamils at the cake stop.
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  • Sorry to hear about the crash. Hope you make a good recovery. Hopefully you'll be fit enough to enjoy the stunning mountain walking there is on offer in France as an alternative.

    I wouldn't get your hopes up too much about an investigation. Even if your crash wasn't simply considered a "racing incident", the chances of getting enough people to agree on what happened when the nearest witnesses are riders who are all at least mildly hypoxic and things happen so quickly in a race would be quite low.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 5,995
    Sorry about what happened but you were in a 4th cat circuit race, there are enough horror stories out there that you must have known this could happen and asking for an enquiry about a racing incident is unreasonable unless you have reason to believe there was some intent there.

    There simply isn't time for organisers/commissaires to carry out enquiries, if you want to make your own enquiries by asking around then do so but nothing will come of it. I've been taken out by a novice myself with lasting consequences (on a chaingang) so I know how it feels but nobody made either of us ride a bike at speed 6 inches behind another bike being ridden at speed in a group of people doing similar !
    AFC Mercia women - sign for us
  • majormantramajormantra Posts: 2,094
    Crashing is part of racing. If you aren't prepared to risk it, don't race.

    Unless every rider were fitted with multiple high framerate video cameras it would be virtually impossible to apportion blame in many cases, and even then these things are somewhat subjective as cause and effective in a large group of riders is very difficult to unpick.

    Bringing compensation culture to racing is the last thing we need. If you can't take the financial risk, either don't race or insure yourself sufficiently to protect yourself if the worst happens. It's perfectly possible to buy insurance against the possibility of being unable to work for a period of time.

    EDIT: I realise the OP is not seeking compensation, but I feel that attempting to apportion blame would inevitably lead to people doing just that. What I would say is that if you are seeing a pattern of bad behaviour from particular riders, bring it to the attention of the commissaires, and (diplomatically), to the riders themselves.
  • SouthgateSouthgate Posts: 246
    Crashing is part of racing. If you aren't prepared to risk it, don't race.

    Unless every rider were fitted with multiple high framerate video cameras it would be virtually impossible to apportion blame in many cases, and even then these things are somewhat subjective as cause and effective in a large group of riders is very difficult to unpick.

    Bringing compensation culture to racing is the last thing we need. If you can't take the financial risk, either don't race or insure yourself sufficiently to protect yourself if the worst happens. It's perfectly possible to buy insurance against the possibility of being unable to work for a period of time.

    EDIT: I realise the OP is not seeking compensation, but I feel that attempting to apportion blame would inevitably lead to people doing just that. What I would say is that if you are seeing a pattern of bad behaviour from particular riders, bring it to the attention of the commissaires, and (diplomatically), to the riders themselves.

    I specifically stated that I accept the risks of racing. I also have full race insurance, and it was another rider who will be off work.

    I am merely suggesting that a "basic investigation" takes place following a serious crash because it may help prevent another one. This could be as simple as asking people to fill in a form after the race or the commissaire talking to the affected riders. Obviously you cannot remove risk, but it makes sense to record the data so that measures can be taken to reduce the frequency of accidents, particularly where the same sort of incidents crop up again and again. Other sports have done this. It seems odd that there is no standard procedure following a serious crash. If anything, the trigger for legal action and an unwelcome compensation culture may be precisely this absence of process.
    Superstition begins with pinning race number 13 upside down and it ends with the brutal slaughter of Mamils at the cake stop.
  • ju5t1nju5t1n Posts: 2,028
    Southgate wrote:
    I am merely suggesting that a "basic investigation" takes place following a serious crash because it may help prevent another one.
    It won’t. Crashes are part of bike racing - and they’re not unique to 4th Cat races either. There are crashes in every round of the Tour Series … and in every stage of the Giro d’Italia so far.

    Nobody causes a crash deliberately, which means they’re accidents. And when you get 40 plus people in close proximity racing bicycles at high speed accidents happen I’m afraid.
  • marykamaryka Posts: 745
    There will be an incident report for this race, as there was a crash, so that probably counts as a "basic investigation" in the sense that the comm may have asked around for versions of events before writing it (or not). You could contact BC Central Region and ask to see a copy of it, or BC HQ (if it's already been passed on).

    Don't get your hopes up that the report will say anything more than "3 riders crashed, there were some serious injuries". It's unlikely to name any "guilty" party unless the comm was standing right there and saw a rider do something specifically dangerous.

    You don't describe the crash, do you not remember it? "There must have been dangerous or careless riding" is a pretty sweeping statement. It could be something as simple as a shunt in the bunch as speeds slowed down for whatever reason, overlapping wheels, someone overcorrects and suddenly several people are on the deck. It comes down to handling skills, knowledge of riding in a bunch and ability to react -- sadly many people (not just 4th cats) are lacking in these areas. That's racing.
  • sub55sub55 Posts: 1,025
    Southgate wrote:
    I got brought down at Hillingdon last Saturday 10 May in a 4th cat race, resulting in a six hour operation for a fractured wrist, two nights in hospital, and going forward: a long recovery period, an uncertain outcome, and guaranteed arthritis. Don't even get me started on the bike or the end of my cycling holiday in France. I've had better weekends, let me leave it at that.<br abp="971"><br abp="972">The crash happened mid way through the race on the straight section by the finishing hut, and when no moves were being made. I didn't have a good enough view to see who specifically caused it, but it was obviously caused by dangerous or careless riding as there were no extenuating factors.<br abp="973"><br abp="974">I have emailed the organisers asking for an investigation and they have passed my request to the race commissaire. It's only been a week, but I've heard nothing since, not even an acknowledgement. <br abp="975"><br abp="976">I'm not after a public flogging of the guilty rider, or compensation. But I do feel that when there has been a serious crash, there ought to be an investigation, lessons learned, and those who caused it spoken to / reprimanded / suspended, whatever is appropriate and proportional in the circumstances.<br abp="977"><br abp="978">I accept the risks of racing, but it seems a bit off that the guilty party can simply spin round to the finish, put his bike in his car and drive home without a care in the world or being subject to any official intervention whatsoever. Three people were hospitalised and two were operated on. Financial damage, incl. three months off work for one self employed rider, will run into the high thousands.<br abp="979"><br abp="980">Is a basic investigation too much to ask for? In the meantime, did anyone here witness the crash?

    Southgate wrote:
    Crashing is part of racing. If you aren't prepared to risk it, don't race.

    Unless every rider were fitted with multiple high framerate video cameras it would be virtually impossible to apportion blame in many cases, and even then these things are somewhat subjective as cause and effective in a large group of riders is very difficult to unpick.

    Bringing compensation culture to racing is the last thing we need. If you can't take the financial risk, either don't race or insure yourself sufficiently to protect yourself if the worst happens. It's perfectly possible to buy insurance against the possibility of being unable to work for a period of time.

    EDIT: I realise the OP is not seeking compensation, but I feel that attempting to apportion blame would inevitably lead to people doing just that. What I would say is that if you are seeing a pattern of bad behaviour from particular riders, bring it to the attention of the commissaires, and (diplomatically), to the riders themselves.

    I specifically stated that I accept the risks of racing. I also have full race insurance, and it was another rider who will be off work.

    I am merely suggesting that a "basic investigation" takes place following a serious crash because it may help prevent another one. This could be as simple as asking people to fill in a form after the race or the commissaire talking to the affected riders. Obviously you cannot remove risk, but it makes sense to record the data so that measures can be taken to reduce the frequency of accidents, particularly where the same sort of incidents crop up again and again. Other sports have done this. It seems odd that there is no standard procedure following a serious crash. If anything, the trigger for legal action and an unwelcome compensation culture may be precisely this absence of process.


    there will be a risk assessment in place for the event, has somebody who has had to do the paperwork behind a RA in the past. I know the risks will be measured and any that are flagged up , measures will be put in place to reduce that risk. Baring in mind this is a circuit race , theres a fair chance that nothing was flagged up . However, how do you suggest reducing the risk on a straight section of road? If you don't like it , you could always take up time trialling.
    constantly reavalueating the situation and altering the perceived parameters accordingly
  • SouthgateSouthgate Posts: 246
    sub55 wrote:
    there will be a risk assessment in place for the event, has somebody who has had to do the paperwork behind a RA in the past. I know the risks will be measured and any that are flagged up , measures will be put in place to reduce that risk. Baring in mind this is a circuit race , theres a fair chance that nothing was flagged up . However, how do you suggest reducing the risk on a straight section of road? If you don't like it , you could always take up time trialling.

    I accept the risks and I like road racing.

    What I'm talking about is what happens after any serious crash, not mine in particular. What I think should happen is something like this

    1. The commissaire speaks to the injured, asks them what happened and explains the process (maybe a standard form is used)

    2. The commissaire speaks to any other involved riders or witnesses

    3. An incident report is written which sets out recommendations. These could range from no further action (NFA) to, say, a suggestion that a bench close the track is moved, or that a rider is reprimanded etc etc.

    4. The report is sent to the concerned parties.

    5. After a period of time, some useful data on crashes will have been collected and perhaps some further changes or recommendations implemented where practical. Say, for example, that half the crashes occurred on the straight when riders sat up and took a drink, then maybe commissaires should be instructed to stress this during pre-ride briefings and inexperienced riders might concentrate a bit more.

    The above are just some basic suggestions to ensure that there is a procedure in place post-crash. It needn't be very time consuming, but in my case no-one spoke to me at all and I don't think a piece of paper saying "3 people crashed" really qualifies as a proper incident report. It may very well be that in my case there would be NFA, but there's only one way to know that.
    Superstition begins with pinning race number 13 upside down and it ends with the brutal slaughter of Mamils at the cake stop.
  • NapoleonDNapoleonD Posts: 18,632
    I broke my back and my collar bone in a crash caused by a young lad who was a liaiblilty throughout the race.
    It has wrecked my career, cost me a fortune and nearly cost me my house.
    What was done about it? Fvck all.
    This was 3 yrs ago. I still have issues with my back and shoulders.
    It really affected me mentally when it happened.

    Yet we still do it.
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  • marykamaryka Posts: 745
    Like I said, contact BC with your concerns -- both about your specific situation, but also in general. They don't tend to be on BR forum very much... write a letter to the Road Commission (call HQ if you don't know where to mail it).

    I don't disagree that better records should be kept on crashes and incidents, particularly in places where there are a lot of problems (like Hillingdon, but also at e.g. Portsmouth Circuit where a rider was seriously injured last year and another rider killed this year). But BC and in fact road racing in general is very old-school and generally relies on inertia to get things done. It's only been in recent years that the sudden popularity of cycling, sportives, etc. and the trickle-down to racing has meant that you can't count on people having decent skills from years of club rides before they start racing.

    BC likes to trumpet their stats of membership, how quickly they are growing, etc. I agree that they should also be dealing with the effects of these huge numbers of cyclists and race licenses, and be better at anticipating and preventing problems. Insurance rates are through the roof right now so there's every reason why they should be looking to cut down on injuries and crashes.
  • SouthgateSouthgate Posts: 246
    ^ Thanks maryka, all good points. I came to racing through the club route and only entered my first race after a few years of learning how to handle a bike, do chain gangs, ride in a fast bunch round Regents Park etc. I can't say I never make mistakes in a race, but my priority in my first few races was always safety and learning race craft. As a... cough... older rider, I know I'm not young enough to know everything. The most gutting thing about the premature end of my season was that it was finally clicking, and I even won the intermediate sprint before I was brought down.
    Superstition begins with pinning race number 13 upside down and it ends with the brutal slaughter of Mamils at the cake stop.
  • damocles10damocles10 Posts: 340
    Sorry to hear about your crash, I hope you feel better soon. I know how it feels to be peaking and then wiped out.

    I have had my fair share of spills in racing (I have seen a lot of bad riding too, worst one was a rider being physically pushed out of the front of the bunch for doing a bit of blocking while his team mate jumped to a break away- Cat3) but I have never even thought about having the crashes investigated as we all know the score on the start line.

    Having said that I think it is important for briefings before the race just to outline some of the rules and etiquette. It is important for racers, while still being competitive, to realise we all have jobs to go to and dangerous riding should not be tolerated. It's not worth the risk for book tokens and points.

    As for the organisers, they are probably concerned, but worried about the consequences.
  • ProssPross Posts: 23,787
    What level of crash is serious enough to need an investigation?

    I doubt the organisers are 'worried about the consequences'. If they have carried out a risk assessment, ensured they haven't exceeded the rider limit and complied with BC technical regulations there's nothing else they can do. BC allows people to race in these events with no requirement to pass a basic test of handling skills or common sense and you have to take that into account when deciding whether to race - I've done that and consequently rarely race these days. It is something that BC need to take seriously but I think it's OTT to demand an investigation into every crash where there's broken bones. The best you can hope for is that there are numerous complaints against an individual rider and that he gets reported if he has been riding dangerously throughout. That said, I have seen a crash investigated much as you suggest, problem is everyone sees it slightly differently.
  • skinnyriderskinnyrider Posts: 65
    damocles10 wrote:
    I have had my fair share of spills in racing (I have seen a lot of bad riding too, worst one was a rider being physically pushed out of the front of the bunch for doing a bit of blocking while his team mate jumped to a break away- Cat3)


    LOL Block a race and you deserve being palmed well out of the way. Standard.



    Crashes happen. There are many muppets and massive fools. No one will know what really happened, or will confess, what are BC to do!? Unless they witnessed the incident there isn't really much to happen.

    Be glad your not racing elite, it's far sketchier than local races. Gladly most are very good bike handlers.




    Sorry for your bad crash. Sucks. But it's just life, like anything else.
  • Southgate wrote:
    Crashing is part of racing. If you aren't prepared to risk it, don't race.

    Unless every rider were fitted with multiple high framerate video cameras it would be virtually impossible to apportion blame in many cases, and even then these things are somewhat subjective as cause and effective in a large group of riders is very difficult to unpick.

    Bringing compensation culture to racing is the last thing we need. If you can't take the financial risk, either don't race or insure yourself sufficiently to protect yourself if the worst happens. It's perfectly possible to buy insurance against the possibility of being unable to work for a period of time.

    EDIT: I realise the OP is not seeking compensation, but I feel that attempting to apportion blame would inevitably lead to people doing just that. What I would say is that if you are seeing a pattern of bad behaviour from particular riders, bring it to the attention of the commissaires, and (diplomatically), to the riders themselves.

    I specifically stated that I accept the risks of racing. I also have full race insurance, and it was another rider who will be off work.

    I am merely suggesting that a "basic investigation" takes place following a serious crash because it may help prevent another one. This could be as simple as asking people to fill in a form after the race or the commissaire talking to the affected riders. Obviously you cannot remove risk, but it makes sense to record the data so that measures can be taken to reduce the frequency of accidents, particularly where the same sort of incidents crop up again and again. Other sports have done this. It seems odd that there is no standard procedure following a serious crash. If anything, the trigger for legal action and an unwelcome compensation culture may be precisely this absence of process.

    Crashes will always happen until the end of time no matter who is in them as we are all human and all make mistakes therefore an investigation will achieve nothing.

    If one bad egg is removed another will always replace them anyway
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  • joey54321joey54321 Posts: 1,297
    Prevention is better than a cure.

    More evidence to suggest there should be a proficiency test to gaining a BC racing license.

    Sorry to hear about the crash and hope it heals quickly. But my gut feeling is you won't get anywhere down your current route.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,003
    joey54321 wrote:
    Prevention is better than a cure.

    More evidence to suggest there should be a proficiency test to gaining a BC racing license.

    Proficiency would be no guarantee of anything. Accidents will always happen. Although I'm frankly amazed at 100 riders being allowed onto Hillingdon. Other similar circuits have rider limits around half that number...
  • philbar72philbar72 Posts: 2,216
    During the winter series the field at hillingdon was around 60 at peak with around 45 on the wetter days.

    60 was more than enough, and in the 4's races there was enough sketchy riding from a lot of riders to put me off racing there a bit as there was nearly always an inevitable crash or incident where lack of awareness or stupidity caused people to leave the circuit. I had to leave the circuit more than once as someone just cut me off or moved across wobbling into my path after i told them clearly i was overtaking!

    Something that han't been covered here is the amount of racers that suit the "sprint or crit" circuits, such as preston park, Hillingdon, Dunsfold and the Milton keynes circuits are getting up to Cat3 and above based on their sprinting ability and their lack of race craft, and then they are causing the same issues. i've seen a few 3 races where the bike handling wasn't as we'd all expect and with the same issues.... (to be clear its not justpeople that can sprint that have the poor bike handling).

    To the OP, I'm sorry to hear about your injuries. hope you recover soon, and this doesn't put you off racing.
  • ozzzyosborn206ozzzyosborn206 Posts: 1,340
    Hope you fix up in time! I agree with you that an investigation of sorts could be beneficial, some people might not even realise what they are doing wrong if they are never told. I raced at Hillingdon twice this year and the combination of both those races was enough to put me off from racing there, i think due to the easy nature of the course it stays too bunched up and weak inexperienced riders can stay in the group bouncing around all day rather than being shelled out the censored like they would at Hog hill for instance. Someone further up said Elite races are worse.......I would say they are a different proposition, where the riders know what they are doing and have more ability to correct slight mistakes but no matter what level there will always be silly crashes, just look at the jokes/ridicule Tyler Farrar gets whenever he crashes
  • gattocattivogattocattivo Posts: 500
    There was yet another big crash at Hillingdon on Saturday, near the front of the bunch this time on the very final lap. I wasn't there, but one of my clubmates was taken down by it. Personally, I don't think I'll ever go back there, this just seems to happen far too often.
  • Imposter wrote:
    joey54321 wrote:
    Prevention is better than a cure.

    More evidence to suggest there should be a proficiency test to gaining a BC racing license.

    Proficiency would be no guarantee of anything. Accidents will always happen.

    But they will happen a lot less frequently if every rider had to pass some sort of official accreditation before being allowed to race. After all, such a system seems to work very well on the track.
    "an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.
  • You never noticed that you get a multi bike crash on every other stage on the giro's and tour stages?! Are they not professional enough then?!

    Accidents/mistakes/human error. All facts of life and you will NEVER eliminate them. You bring in too many rules, regulations and you ruin sport and fun for the masses.
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  • mm1mm1 Posts: 1,101
    I seem to recall that in King of Sports the legendary Peter Ward says that (in amateur racing at least) if a rider causes a crash, he should be responsible for rectifying the damage caused to others' bikes. This was written in the 1960's so I'm not sure it could work now, or how one could differentiate between an accident and crashes that are caused by dangerous riding. Surely the comms should be pulling riders who are an obvious danger, or is it just a massive free for all?
  • ongejongej Posts: 118
    mm1 wrote:
    I seem to recall that in King of Sports the legendary Peter Ward says that (in amateur racing at least) if a rider causes a crash, he should be responsible for rectifying the damage caused to others' bikes. This was written in the 1960's so I'm not sure it could work now, or how one could differentiate between an accident and crashes that are caused by dangerous riding. Surely the comms should be pulling riders who are an obvious danger, or is it just a massive free for all?

    Its a massive free for all, esp at 4th cat. The cause of crashes can be helped by cameras on bikes, but thats not an option anymore for amateurs I guess... just for the pros now...
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 5,995
    Have you ever heard anyone put their hand up and admit responsibility for causing a crash in a race ? Determining who is at fault is going to be near enough impossible in 95% of cases. If someone slips out on a corner are they at fault or did they hit a patch of gravel ? if there is a touch of wheels were they overlapping or did someone not hold their line ?

    Commissaires could perhaps pull very obviously dangerous riders but how often do you see someone riding so dangerously that it is obvious from a following car or to a comm standing by a circuit seeing the race once per lap?

    Sorry but for me it's a choice of either live with the situation as it is or try and improve rider standards either through compulsory coaching and/or some kind of test of competence as censored suggests above. Once an accident has happened I don't see much scope for investigations - riders can always go to the commissaire with complaints and I've known it happen but unless the rider is incompetent to a degree rarely seen I really can't see much coming of post crash investigation.
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  • marykamaryka Posts: 745
    This is a sequence of pics taken at the Hillingdon winter series in 2009/10, in the 3rd cat race. The photographer just happened to be in the right place to get it all.
    https://plus.google.com/photos/10402967 ... 9655927868

    I was in this race but thankfully on the inside and out of trouble. It happened on the final lap and the big guy in KW kit with the white overshoes won the sprint easily, he was basically just jumping when the first pic was taken. If you look at the pics, you can see a guy in orange on the far left moving off his line to jump on my teammate's wheel when he went. Behind him is the carnage. Guy in orange finished ~4th if I recall. The others ended up in the mud, on the deck. Guy in orange never had any idea he was the one who caused the crash. Neither did anyone else (except the guys directly behind him, #122 and the Sigma guy) until we saw the pics.

    This is a rare sequence of pics because it captures exactly how the crash happened, bit by bit. The comms are at the top of the hill (this was when it was raced ACW with the finish at the top of the chicanes) so there is no way they would have seen this happen. Cameras on bikes would be a good thing I think and actually I've seen a fair few in amateur crits in recent years but obviously they are banned now. If anything, just so you can see how things go wrong.

    Here's another shunt that causes a crash in the London Dynamo club circuit race champs a few years back, just a misjudgement, wheel overlap (guy stood up and sat down I believe, causing the guy behind him to lose his front wheel).
    http://youtu.be/oTpvrFrb8ks?t=2m14s
  • PuttyKneesPuttyKnees Posts: 381
    I've just spent the weekend watching youths riding and crashing around the north west and consequently, this is a really interesting question to me. The riders come off generally knowing who caused a crash or who is generally a loose rider. It seems natural to me that at some point, someone is going to ask whether sufficient is done to eliminate poor riders from a field and when the answer is "nothing is done", it may well be challenged through some other jurisdiction. On the track, at least as far as I've seen, comms are eagle eyed and very quick to remove a rider for the slightest transgression. It can be quite a sight, and it does make me cringe sometimes, but it does make for good etiquette and safe(r) riding when, for example, a rider misses a shoulder check and then they're rollocked and sitting out the next race/meeting.
  • kingstoniankingstonian Posts: 2,150
    When I raced in France I ended up at the bottom of a pile-up. The commissaire singled me out and gave me a huge bollocking - until another rider pointed out it was a case of mistaken identity. The commissaire spun on his heel and stormed off to find the correct person to yell at.

    I think it is good practice for an investigation to take place whenever serious injuries occur in a race.
  • Sorry to learn of your crash. Yes of course serious incidents should be investigated. I have been injured twice in the last 18 months racing. On both occasions I lost consciousness and did not have the first idea what had happened. My experience in both cases has been somewhat different. The first time the rider here in plain white
    14106402837_bedfeb6222_s.jpg (as I was told by fellow riders)
    simply fell over sideways in front of me on a dead straight flat stretch of road half way through a road race. He was never asked why he fell and the Comm went to great lengths to conceal his identity and involvement. BC in Manchester were as helpful as they could be and eventually with none of the information they should have received from the Comm identified the guy in the photo.
    Second time, in January, I was very severely injured by a Twickenham rider at Hillingdon in an E123 race trying to barge through a non-existent gap to move up the field. He was a strong guy come fresh to cycling from weightlifting and won one of his first races at the end of last season to become a 3rd cat. Again numerous riders saw what happened. The Comm identified him in his report but the Region decided no formal action should be taken. Unlike my first crash 'advice' was given and I can see he has not raced since.
    Much depends upon the characters involved though the rules are clear that the Comm should investigate any incident and fill in an incident report identifying not just the injured but all involved as witnesses. I suspect that many (including the Comm in the first incident) think clamming up reduces a risk of litigation but I agree with you the reverse is probably true and it is an unwarranted assumption that anyone seeking information is looking to sue.
    I should add that I was involved in organising a race just a few weeks ago when a crash occurred in the final sprint. resulting in a rider being ambulanced to hospital. I asked the riders what they had seen as they handed back their numbers and passed on the details of an eye-witness who had seen it unfold to the Comm. Simple stuff really but I wonder how often it happens.
    I think your reaction that lessons should be learned from such misfortune is one I fully understand and one I completely shared.
    Sadly after 7 years incident free racing, two serious smashes in a relatively short period causing very significant injury and financial losses have finished my (admittedly not stunningly effectual) participation in a sport I really enjoyed, even when/if I regain sufficient fitness.
    Ultimately we have to assess the risks inherent in racing for ourselves and our perceptions are bound to be coloured by our own experiences. We have both been unlucky compared to the average but fortunate compared to a very few.
    I hope you recover well and swiftly.
  • damocles10damocles10 Posts: 340
    Sorry to learn of your crash. Yes of course serious incidents should be investigated. I have been injured twice in the last 18 months racing. On both occasions I lost consciousness and did not have the first idea what had happened. My experience in both cases has been somewhat different. The first time the rider here in plain white
    14106402837_bedfeb6222_s.jpg (as I was told by fellow riders)
    simply fell over sideways in front of me on a dead straight flat stretch of road half way through a road race. He was never asked why he fell and the Comm went to great lengths to conceal his identity and involvement. BC in Manchester were as helpful as they could be and eventually with none of the information they should have received from the Comm identified the guy in the photo.
    Second time, in January, I was very severely injured by a Twickenham rider at Hillingdon in an E123 race trying to barge through a non-existent gap to move up the field. He was a strong guy come fresh to cycling from weightlifting and won one of his first races at the end of last season to become a 3rd cat. Again numerous riders saw what happened. The Comm identified him in his report but the Region decided no formal action should be taken. Unlike my first crash 'advice' was given and I can see he has not raced since.
    Much depends upon the characters involved though the rules are clear that the Comm should investigate any incident and fill in an incident report identifying not just the injured but all involved as witnesses. I suspect that many (including the Comm in the first incident) think clamming up reduces a risk of litigation but I agree with you the reverse is probably true and it is an unwarranted assumption that anyone seeking information is looking to sue.
    I should add that I was involved in organising a race just a few weeks ago when a crash occurred in the final sprint. resulting in a rider being ambulanced to hospital. I asked the riders what they had seen as they handed back their numbers and passed on the details of an eye-witness who had seen it unfold to the Comm. Simple stuff really but I wonder how often it happens.
    I think your reaction that lessons should be learned from such misfortune is one I fully understand and one I completely shared.
    Sadly after 7 years incident free racing, two serious smashes in a relatively short period causing very significant injury and financial losses have finished my (admittedly not stunningly effectual) participation in a sport I really enjoyed, even when/if I regain sufficient fitness.
    Ultimately we have to assess the risks inherent in racing for ourselves and our perceptions are bound to be coloured by our own experiences. We have both been unlucky compared to the average but fortunate compared to a very few.
    I hope you recover well and swiftly.

    Interesting insight and well said.
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